It's not the same , he's not married.

[smallereveryday]

Had a bit of a falling out with a close friend as she is having an affair. It's difficult because she is a really close friend a god mother to two of our children. Someone whose morals and judgment I've held in high esteem for 30+ years.
Friend is separated. Very amicable ,Ex- Husband lives in Annex attaches to house and on-Hand for kids should he be required. (Mid/late teens)..

She started this affair 2 yrs ago and was the catalyst to end her long dead marriage.
I have made my feelings very clear in the matter and have told her not to discuss it with me unless she wants a row. We try to spend time together avoiding the subject but inevitably it spills over.

Friend believes she is doing nothing wrong as she is separated (mid divorce Nisi received etc) and Affair partner never married. This, to my friends mind makes all the difference. She maintains that she can only commit adultery with a married man.. and he isn't. ! This has been fuelled by AP now proposing . He maintains he is free to do so despite currently living with his partner because he has 'never loved her enough to marry her' (yet still managed to make two kids with her). Now - loves middle-aged dream has changed all that ).

He has just put a hefty deposit down for a new home for both of them , so am pretty sure this is all happening. Obviously I don't know all the gory details as TRY not to get in to it.

AIBU to say that it makes no bloody difference if he's married or not. This does not excuse this behaviour. He is in a relationship with children. Friend maintains that I'm talking nonsense. He has never legally committed to his partner so it's her fault for agreeing to have children without legal safeguards. Unbelievably of the 4 other couples who know about this ALL the husbands and 3 of the Wives agree that as he isn't married , there isn't an issue and he is free to do as he pleases. Am I really that out of step ?

Im so disappointed. This man seems to have changed my normally sensible, kind thoughtful and above all moral friend into someone so willing to compromise her beliefs in such a selfish way.

There is - I believe some more to this and even more fearful that it is not good for APs current partner.
As I have mentioned in my OP I don try to steer away from the subject. However friend is excited and in love - and can't help spilling that excitement into our conversations. One of which concerned the new house deposit.
I asked how this could happen without his partner knowing. Friend said ' it's his money, she doesn't work and he gives her an allowance - one of the reasons they never got married was he didn't want to lose everything in a divorce to a woman who never put anything in the pot so she doesn't know anything about his money. What he does with it is up to him. '.

Add to that my friend adamantly declaring that she would 'never settle for anyone who didn't have enough regard , that they didn't offer marriage - and 48hrs later there is a proposal ! (Also helps that she will be very well off from equal terms divorce settlement)

None of this is good. I see the ex getting shafted. Which is very unfair. I have decided that I need to talk to her, be honest and step away.

No. Soon to be ex knows nothing.

Well, I suppose she is technically correct that it isn't adultery. It's still pretty awful though.

But as others have said it isn't your business. I would just avoid her if it bothers you so much. And sod everyone who is saying you're being judgemental - I have never cheated on anyone in my life despite having been in some pretty shitty relationships so I also find it shocking to hear when a friend does something like this. You're allowed to be judgemental when someone is planning a whole new life with a man who has a blissfully unaware family.

So how much is she putting into this house deposit?

He really is a turd.

Next time she says it's OK to sleep with other non-husbands ask how she feels about him sleeping with other women right now. Surely it's the same? He can sleep with anyone until he says I Do

Bloody hell this is really really awful, what a pair of absolute twats.

"Friend said ' it's his money, she doesn't work and he gives her an allowance - one of the reasons they never got married was he didn't want to lose everything in a divorce to a woman who never put anything in the pot so she doesn't know anything about his money. What he does with it is up to him."

That a 'friend' could comfortably say that, be comfortable with that situation, would put me off. I couldn't remain friends with someone like that.

"No. Soon to be ex knows nothing."

Given what your friend said about Affair Man's partner's financial situation, I think I would tell her (the soon-to-be-ex) after all, if I knew her.

So he's a financially abusive turd. Nice prize your friend has. Bet he bleeds her divorce settlement dry and fucks off with the next.

Only the other day I was called a judgemental prick on here because I said I’d end a friendship with someone who was having an affair with a married man. I’m still a judgemental prick because I’m saying the same again. I’d consign the friendship to room 101. It sounds as if these two nasty pieces of work deserve each other and I’m very sorry for his partner although she’s better off without him.

it's his money, she doesn't work and he gives her an allowance - one of the reasons they never got married was he didn't want to lose everything in a divorce to a woman who never put anything in the pot

And this is why having children without the financial security of marriage is leaving yourself vulnerable, if you are a SAHP.

His 'D'P, will be left brassic and he only has to pay child support.

I mean, there's a lot going on here isn't there. I wouldn't personally want a friend who found it acceptable that her soon to be partner (?) gave his current partner "an allowance" and viewed any money he had as "his money" when presumably his partner cares for his children and home so that he can go out and earn said money. As far as I am concerned that kind of financial abuse is domestic abuse.

This man sounds awful and your friends contemptuous attitude towards his partner sounds awful too. But I have never ever, in real life, met people who take the kind of absolutist moral stance with regards to affairs that you see on Mumsnet. Never. Where do you all come from?!

I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who judged others like that. I agree that in an ideal world we don't hurt and deceive others. It is not behaviour to strive for. Nobody thinks that is a good thing to do. But in reality humans do not behave perfectly. Nobody does. And there is more than one way to destroy a relationship.

Perhaps this mans current partner has never had an affair but has spent the last however many years putting him down, witholding affection, and driving his self esteem into the ground. Does that make her a "better" person? Perhaps a friend of mine might be having an affair with a married man (because she loves him) but devotes all her free time to helping others less fortunate than herself through charity work and advocacy. Is she still an irredeemably terrible person?

I would never abandon a friend because they were having an affair personally. Neither would I cheer them on. Your friend is kidding herself though. There is no difference to the amount of pain this will cause others whether he is married or not.

So if he never married in order to protect his money, what makes your friend think he will actually marry her? A proposal, a ring...means nothing until an actual marriage. This house he has a deposit on, in his name only? She could move in with him, the wedding may not actually happen as he may decide he wants to continue to protect his money. One day your friend may well find herself in the exact same position as the woman she is replacing. Karma I’d say.

Your friend is a callous cow. But she’ll find out soon enough what sort of man she’s planning to shack up with. He may marry her (or he may string her along instead) after dumping his partner and kids, but his behaviour has shown her who he is. She’s not listening but I’m pretty sure at some future point she’ll be treated badly by him too. A leopard doesn’t change its spots.

That update .............. sounds like your friend has got a real prize there

But I have never ever, in real life, met people who take the kind of absolutist moral stance with regards to affairs that you see on Mumsnet. Never. Where do you all come from?

Most people don't discuss these things IRL.
They just do what they think is right.

I've distanced myself from a friend cheating on her DH. No fuss, no drama...I told tell other friends about it, I just made my decision.

People often choose their friends based on similar morals, values and behaviours.

I'm against drug taking...so I wouldn't chose a drug taker as my friend. I wouldn't choose a friend who is abusive towards her OH...because it doesn't sit well with me.

I don't like to do anything to another person, that I wouldn't like done to me. So being friendly with a person who did that, would equally not sit well with me.

That's not saying I'm perfect, because nobody is.

I've heard of some poor behaviour of OWs... things like sending nudes to her MM when his wife was in labour and she knew or I think the worse was joining the MM to laugh at his wife's scars following a mastectomy when she had cancer. Yet to his wife's face he would pretend the scars didnt change his love for her.

So.... I would absolutely not be a friend of someone who was the OW and behaved like this.

Some people have standards for friends and saying a friend should support you through thick and thin is naive at best.

Something isn't only bad, because it's being done to someone else....because by that logic...if your friend is sleeping with your DP/DH... you should be there for her shouldn't you. Through thick and thin.

No, I get it. I choose friends based on shared values too. I would not want to be friends with the woman OP describes because I would find her callous attitude and condoning of financial abuse to be at odds with my ideas of what's ok and not ok.

But I also value a willingness to see the best in others, empathy, forgiveness, and the ability to see various shades of grey. If I had a friend who was having an affair with a married man, was tying herself up in knots over it, suffering with guilt, but unable to let go because she loved him, I would not abandon her and/or consider her morally defunct.

I find superiority complexes and a willingness to trash other people without ever having walked a mile in their shoes far more objectionable, personally. There are worse crimes than having an affair.

Technically he's not having an affair (I think reading the OP she WAS having an affair as this 'relationship' started before she got divorced (or started divorce proceedings)

However he is cheating, she's part of that and it's wrong (and that may sound judgemental but I don't particularly care)

smallereveryday - it sounds like your horrible friend and her lover are well matched. Both are clearly self-justifying twats. Needless to say, their belief in their moral superiority will not pass muster with their chidren or ex partners. They are having an affair that is every bit as grubby as any other affair that involves lying, being secretive about financial affairs, and pretending that the whole thing is the fault of an indolent partner who supposedly never contributed anything to the relationship the poor dears had to tolerate under extreme duress for years.

It wouldn't surprise me if his partner has been on here, posting about her partner not wanting to marry her.

He's despicable, and your friend's no better. Her attitude towards the innocent victim in this, would make me drop her like a ton of bricks.

I hope karma gets her. After he's used up all her money.

A previous poster said people don't judge as much in real life.

I probably wouldn't normally even comment on this thread but have 100% without fuss dropped cheating in friends in real life.

As have many I know, you just don't hear about it.

I'm surprised to see how many wouldn't consider someone having an affair if they're in a relationship but not married. I've been with my partner 14 years and we're both happily not married. In that time, I've known numerous people to get married, divorced and then married again in the time we've been together.

OP, you are not unreasonable to judge them. Your friend seems to think that he will commit to her because they're getting married. However, I'm sure it won't be long before he's on to someone else with a sob story about how he was forced in to marriage.

Friend said ' it's his money, she doesn't work and he gives her an allowance - one of the reasons they never got married was he didn't want to lose everything in a divorce to a woman who never put anything in the pot so she doesn't know anything about his money. What he does with it is up to him. '.

He's a scumbag and she'll get hers soon enough.

The married/not married distinction is meaningless - an affair is an affair and it sounds like this is possibly one of the worst kind of affairs - there’s a massive amount of lying and the best case scenario is that the mother of two children is going to be blind sighted, crushed emotionally and probably left with very little financially. Yes this is 80% the fault of her affair partner, but she is actively conspiring to pull the rug out from someone’s feet.

I’m with you OP, judgement is necessary and appropriate here. Being ‘judgemental’ is a problem when you’re judging people based on attributes they didn’t choose or if you’ve never been in their situation, but judging someone based on their actions is totally reasonable. This is especially true if those actions have the potential to really hurt other people.

And actually, this is your business. We should all live by our values, not just when it is easy, but when it is difficult. Otherwise, our values are worth nothing. The easy thing for you to do here OP is carry on being friends with this person and avoiding the conversation or pretending things are fine. But do you want to live in a world where people treat other people this way and face no pushback from their friends?

I think if you’re committed to your values you need to tell this friend that you’ll be there for her if she comes to her senses and realises how poorly she’s acting but whilst she’s having this affair you can’t have a relationship with her.

Never heard so much minimalising bullshit! Cheating and an affair are not exclusive to being married. Various dictionary definitions say the following:

An affair is a sexual relationship, romantic friendship, or passionate attachment between two people without the attached person's significant other knowing.

PS: And being cynical, maybe the man your friend is cheating with sees your friend as more marriageable because she has assets, he can strip her off. If so, it would serve the amoral deceitful mare right!

From your last update OP, that’s horrendous.

Your ‘friend’ is horrendous she is actively colluding with a bastard who is intending on leaving his partner and their children financially destitute.

He sounds like he has been financially abusive to his STBX.

How many threads have there been on here where the (usually female) partner has had to give up her career as they’ve jointly agreed she take care of the kids or he’s said he won’t contribute towards childcare.

Can you tell the STBX, at least she has warning to rally around support if nothing else.

And your friend is utterly evil. Yeah yeah I’m judgemental.

What a horrible couple. The mother of his kids should send him an invoice for all the childcare and house keeping shes provided over the years.