My mum lives with me but acts like a guest

[lookybooky]

My father passed away 4 years ago and my mum (early 60's) was so distraught that I invited her to move in with my family. We didn't have a spare room so she gave us £80k to build an extension (she has the 2 rooms that we built). At the time she said it was all she could spare but that was fine as it was enough for the 2 storey extension which includes a bathroom and kitchenette. She also pays £150 p/m towards bills. She doesn't babysit or do any housework or gardening but she was a bit miserable for the first year so I didn't expect any help. But we're in year 4 now and all she does is watch TV and go shopping or meet friends. Again, I could probably deal with that but I've just found out that she gave my brother almost exactly the same amount of money (only £10k less) at the same time as she gave me. AIBU that she's living like a guest in my home while he gets to do whatever he wants with the money (he's invested it into property I believe)? I've pointed out that I feel it's unfair but she said it's her own business and if I'm unhappy, I should return the £80k and she'll get a retirement flat. She won't move in with my bro as she hates his wife!

I'm also wondering if DM owned a home before moving in with OP, and if so, where that money went. Just wondering if she can afford a flat without taking back any "gift" money.

I agree with a pp that you should tell your brother that it is his turn to accommodate your mum. If he doesn’t have room her has the option of selling his investment property and extending his house or housing her in his investment property

Call your brother and say: “now your turn - mum’s moving in with you for 4 years now

It was the OP who agreed to having her mother move in. Its her mistake to rectify not her brothers. Unless there was some agreement made before the OPs mother moved in to share her care then you can’t make him retrospectively jointly responsible for his sisters bad planning and decision.

The situation sucks but you can’t blame the brother.

The OP had agreed to the situation when she didn’t know all he facts - her sibling got the money because mmy loves him and she got money in exchanges for taking in her moher forever.

@clairemcnam. 🙄🙄

I was using those extra hidden costs as example of how her share is far more than £150 /month. It's not about being petty, it's about being realistic. She is likely to be benefitting from all those services that she would have to pay for herself in her own flat. These are not free services!

Most people mow their lawns at least once a fortnight in summer btw , the mum is benefitting from garden but not even helping a bit?

It isn't about what extra it costs to have OP's mum living there. OP & DH have lost their privacy as a result of her moving in. So yes, she should pay her fair share. It's still cheaper for her than living in her own place and she's saved lots of money in those 4 years by doing so.

Now we know it was given as a gift, PP can stop talking about OP remortgaging to give back a gift. And OP's DM is awful to keep throwing it in her face.
As I said before, a care home would have been £600-800 a week, well over £120,000 for those 4 years. Renting a small annexe would have been about £24,000-30,000. Care homes and landlords don't pay it back when you leave...

OP will have lost some space in her garden for two rooms she doesn't get benefit from herself. It's costing them more money with mum living there. There's no benefit to OP as she can't sell her property to reap a notional "financial reward" from gift as mum is living there! (And might outlive her!) She didn't pay off OPs mortgage, she paid to have two rooms added for herself. Mum is leaving a mess in kitchen like a child. Mum is critical. They've lost their privacy & autonomy over their home as a family unit. Mum has support and lifts whenever she wants but as an able bodied 60 year old (which isn't old), she resents picking up her GC in an emergency situ (3 times in 4 years!!) and doesn't offer any meaningful help. But expects OP will care for her, in her old age?

Mum is a taker, so OP should renegotiate her monthly contribution and make the "helping each other out" a two way, not one way, street. Or OP doesn't do it, when it's not convenient to her either.

It's not unreasonable to Call Mum's bluff next time she says she'll leave. She doesn't get back a gift though. Tell her fine if that's what she wants, you'll put her on the Local BC sheltered housing waiting list or she can move in with DBro for 4 years as it's his turn now. And you'll help her pack "if that's really what she wants".

(Let's see how golden boy DBro stays 'golden' when he tells her she can't move in with him nor into his second flat even with her previous gift! )

Some PPs are forgetting that it's the Mum arguing and throwing a gift into OP's face, having been looked after and subsidized by OP for 4 years. A bit of straight talking to mum won't hurt her. And she'll soon cool her boots and be more mindful and respectful in OP's house. As it is she's throwing her weight around with (what are empty but not nice) threats. It's emotional blackmail, so yes, call her bluff. Hopefully she'll stop . Really, I think that's all OP wants. A bit of respect in her own home and for Mum's contribution to be fairer, both in time and money for bills.

I love my parents, they regularly stay long periods at mine. They collect DC for me (although I don't need them to) some days as they enjoy the walk. Mum cooks the days I'm at work. They have children a bit in holidays. But like many parents mine can also be a bit presumptuous, critical and take over my house when they stay. We get on as I call them out on it, when it bothers me, same as they do to me, if I've said or done something unfair to them . We occasionally argue.
None of that is unkind, it's honesty and working to manage your relationships.

So much going on with this. But in my opinion, what it boils down to is this - the money your brother was given is his inheritance. The money you were given for the extension is your inheritance. It is unfair that you didn’t get to decide what to do with it, but that’s done now. You say yourself, legally the £80k was a gift not a loan. Therefore your mum has no right to demand it back from you if she moves out.

I think it’s fair to bring your brothers money in, in this context.
You - It’s not working out, we need you to do xyz or move out
Mum - If I move out, you have to give me my money back
Y - Legally the money was a gift. I don’t have to give it back. It’s equal to the money you gave my brother - our equal inheritance.
[Maybe offer the £10k to keep it totally even and get her on her feet renting somewhere]
M - You’re right, I realised I’ve been a twat

Done!

By saying she’d take it back, she’s kind of blackmailing you into letting her continue to live in your house for £150pcm. You said yourself, the money is legally a gift, and equivalent to what your sibling got. Normally I’d say it’s not worth arguing about money with a parent, that’s your mum. But actually I think your family life with your husband and children, and potentially 30 years of that being disrupted and you being unhappy is more important here.

1. The gift- shut that down.’ Mum you can leave whenever you like but I’m not returning your money. I’d consider adding unless I see cast iron evidence that dB has already repaid you. I’m not changing my mind on this.
2. Contact your siblings and explain while this arrangement is - not so much working but hanging in there- at the moment , it won’t be an option if she needs more care. You will all have to look at care homes together then, unless someone else can commit more time and offer her a home at that time.
3. Now you’ve got that out of the way, address the parenting and possibly the bills. Either by paying more or not using the heating in summer. But you may not stress about the bills if you have successfully shut down the parenting criticism. It may be you could arrange a session with you, her and a mediator to help the discussion. But it is critical you have done point 1- shecan leave anytime but you won’t be returning her gift.

@Warmcoffee I think you are dead right but (imo) no way is she going to say 'you're right I realise I've been a twat'
it would be great if she did but she doesn't sound like a person who will ever back down

To those of you saying it’s now the brother’s turn - why? The DM had a place of her own until after her husband’s death, after which the OP panicked about her mum’s emotional state and decided to have her move in.

As many have pointed out, this was a mistake on the OP’s part. The DM would have been fine living independently and is really far too young to move in with her DD to be “looked after” like an invalid. However, it was an arrangement between OP and her mum; the brother had no say in this matter and OP chose to take responsibility for her mum. Why is she now the brother’s responsibility?

If anyone was going to put the brakes on this scheme, it should have been the OP’s husband. I’m amazed he stood by and let his home be taken over instead of saying “OK love, you and your mum are both in a bit of a state since your dad died. Let’s just keep an eye on your mum for a bit and see how she goes before we go talking about moving her.”

OP sorry, just saw, that money doesn't include food - my bad.

In that case, I don't know how the bills work out - the main thing is maybe the change to your mortgage? But certainly she should be cleaning the kitchen as she uses it.

@Living, I agree that her initial move to get her mum living with her was in hindsight counterproductive, a bad strategy.

The mortgage has stayed the same. The mother paid for the extension outright.
And does she only use the main kitchen to make the children's breakfasts?

What if Op's mum can't afford to move out without the money?

In which case they'll have to find a way of making things work.

You already resent having your mother living with you (completely justifiably!) so it's obvious that this situation can't be allowed to continue for the next 30 years. She will become more frail and expect you to care for her, all the time waving her £80k contribution around like a weapon. You're looking down the barrel of providing round the clock care for a woman you don't even like. There is absolutely no upside of this situation for you.

Would you be able to remortgage and pay her back? You wouldn't have to pay her the whole £80k; she has been living with you rent free for 4 years after all. If the annexe is self contained you could get a lodger to help with the remortgaging costs. Your mother has no legal rights to the money, and from what you've said she charged you an usurious amount of interest for the original house deposit, so I wouldn't feel too bad about playing financial hardball with her.

People who have a nice mother wouldn't be able to understand the mixed feelings of resentment, guilt and frustration that having a deeply selfish mother brings. Would you consider getting therapy to talk over your FOG with somebody impartial? This might help you separate the financial side from the dysfunctional relationship side. Therapy has really helped me come to terms with my own unhappy feelings about my mother and accept that she'll never be the person I hoped for.

In the meantime, you should set the following boundaries:

1. No more giving her lifts. She can get a taxi.
2. She cooks in her own kitchenette, not in the family kitchen.
3. She pays a fairer contribution to the bills. £150 a month is laughable for someone who's in the house all the time with the heating on.
4. As a previous poster suggested, if she has her own entrance then lock her out of the main house while you're at work.
5. Consider remortgaging, but getting a lodger in the annexe to help pay the mortgage. You would never have to see them and they'd probably be a lot more respectful of you than your mother currently is.

Good luck OP.

What if Op's mum can't afford to move out without the money?

Well maybe she can't but if she is expecting the OP to pay it back then she needs to ask her son for his amount to be returned too.

I think the same, she decided to give you both money.
Was it done in writing...an agreement?
Tell your brother he needs to talk to your mum, and you both need to sort something.
Maybe be you can both co buy something, and let your mum live there, with an agreement it is sold as soon as no longer needed by your mum

I think it's a mess, & long term you will need her to leave.
You thought she would muck in & I think this is entirely fair, she is benefitting from this situation & will indefinitely have on hand care, with a small investment for no rent & no responsibility for her home.This is not to say she is required to babysit etc, but you have opened your doors to her when she was grieving, & still subsidize her & put up with her mess
You might have even cut nursery costs a bit had she been a hands on loving grandma. offering to babysit if you had a night out, small gestures that could improve your quality of life & help cut child care costs. Surely most GPs would be happy to help ?

She probably could manage live in Dbs flat, rent free, she isn't OLD, she can manage a few flights of stairs surely.

What if she had no access to your house now & simply lived independently in her flat ? would that be a solution? I certainly would not accept that she left your kitchen a mess, knowing you have a FTJ. That is down right deliberate & disrespectful. Would she have done this in her own kitchen?
What really is her financial situation? Has she still got sufficient funds to go & rent a flat? could she afford one of the over 60s type flats in a complex? I wonder has she ever had a job? She seems "astute" re the investment/interest on your deposit...
I would try & get her to leave, Is there really no way you could re- mortgage ? or give her 10K & say you & db will pay her rent if necessary ? (you could rent out the annexe to fund this) If you do give her back the 80K, remember to tell both her & DB that you will not be funding her old age care.

In my view having anyone living in an annexe in your property is potentially very problematic, letting a parent become dependent on you when they're still quite young also seems like a very bad idea

I see 3 options

1. You return money and mum moves out. It likely means you extend your mortgage but gives you back privacy and autonomy.
2. You refuse to return money and mum moves out. Legally correct but morally dubious if mum was under the impression she could stay forever and in her mind ‘invested’ her money in your property.
3. You establish much clearer boundaries. So separate her annexe from your house more formally, don’t allow her to cook in your kitchen, possibly divide the garden and don’t look after her area. Would it be possible to heat her annexe separately? Don’t expect any childcare at all and in return don’t offer her lifts or do shopping. She is 60, she can get a taxi or even learn to drive. Treat her to like a guest when she visits (she isn’t allowed to let herself in). So no expectations of help and she gets no input in your parenting. Basically she becomes your next door neighbour and you get your house back.

You sound (quite rightly) at the end of your tether. From personal experience parents health can deteriorate overnight and you become trapped in a situation of caring for them which you weren’t expecting. You really need to reset your mum’s boundaries and expectations while she is well. Forgetting the money completely, it is not reasonable for somebody who adds nothing to your life at all when they are fit and well to expect you to be responsible for them when they are old and infirm.

OP, do you actually want to live with your mother anymore, or for her to live with you? Let the answer to that question dictate how you go forward from here.

Legal situation re money is that its 100% a gift, not a loan. Remortgaging is not an option and she knows that because weve already remortgaged to pay her back for the deposit she gave to help me and DH buy the house. That money was returned plus almost the same again in interest as she said it was an investment. So we've been very clear this time the money is not an investment!!

Ok this is the conversation I think I'd be having with her.

'Mum I think you need to understand that when you chose to give the money to me and DB in different ways, you turned both those pots of money into something very different. I didn't get 'given' 80k - I was made to put that money into an extension. That money doesn't exist as cash. The only way for you to 'get back' your GIFT is the following. We would have to sell the house. The value of the house pre- and post-extension would be used as a way of calculating how much of your 80k you would theoretically get back, which, as it's a gift, would depend on whether you also asked DB for HIS gift back - if you didn't, I wouldn't give back my 'gift' either. Then pre-splitting the money, all solicitors fees, moving costs, and anything else that inconvenienced us would be taken from the pre-split amount (we would be selling because of you, we wouldn't want to, so we would not be prepared to be a penny out of pocket). So then after all that, as long as you were willing to also ask DB for the same percentage of his gift back so that we are equal (well as much as we can ever be now seeing as he has alrady had the freedom to invest his money from you in a way which will already have made him far more money than us - by the way, I don't see you calling in that 'investement' in the way you did with our house deposit - maybe you should if we're to be 'equal??) - after all that, I would guess that we might be able to return, simply out of goodwill as legally it was a gift, an amount of money which would allow you to get a retirment flat as long as DB contributed too.

So there you are. Have a think - remember this is even before we get to the bit where you aren't curently living as a result of the money you gave us - our big kitchen and the use of that certainly didn't come from your 'gift'. While we're settling things, let's also agree that if you don't want to babysit, then don't ask for lifts, and if you don't want me to ask you to help out then fine, I fully expect you in return to keep your opinions to yourself on my parenting.'

Seriously though, this isn't going to end well if you're all getting frustrated. But the bottom line is, if the money was a gift - then she stays on her best behaviour, because if she chooses to leave then no you are not obliged to return a PENNY of that money and unless she is prepared to ask you and your DB for an equal contribution back then she can whistle!

When she lentyou money before you repaid it and you paid interest, she is expecting the same now she wants the money back and she wants some interest, she wants something extra in return for her generosity
That's why she's taking the piss she feels as if you owe her

There's another option too of course.

You sell up and make more money from the house sale because of the extension. She moves into your DB investment property, and you agree with your DB that YOU pay a reduced rent to him for her to live there, from the extra proceeds of the house sale you've banked thanks to her gift.

That way,

• neither of you return her gift, because it was a gift
• however both of you fund her living costs in return, so she is covered
• both of you are equally inconvenienced by having to fund her and yet both of you retain the substance of the cash gift so BOTH of you continue to benefit from its investment (you have more profit from your house sale, DB still has the investment property for the future).

Can't say fairer than that!!!!!

Having read that you have resentment over your childhood that's another big reason to try and move away from the situation

Seriously I would lay down the law and say your options now are the above, OR to continue staying with us but the annexe is now completely separate and you use your own kitchen and we live completely separately, or we will fall out as you cannot continue to throw your weight around and criticise my parenting.