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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do you judge women who don’t want kids?

827 replies

Ellabella989 · 29/03/2019 10:33

I’m in my early 30s and have decided I never want kids. Literally every single female who I’ve confided in about this, from family members to friends to work colleagues, have been incredibly judgemental and told me i’ll be missing out and will eventually regret it and could potentially spend my later years very lonely if my partner dies before me.
AIBU to find these opinions very irritating? I don’t list all the reasons to them why I think their way of life is less appealing to mine so I don’t see why I have to sit back and basically be told I’m a freak for not wanting kids. Maybe I just know some very judgemental people :-(

OP posts:
Dohangoversgetworseasyougetold · 31/03/2019 08:04

The trouble is that you can't actually compromise with your partner over whether or not to have children. Either way, one partner gets what they want and the other doesn't. You can't have a bit of a child, or have one for a six-month trial period. Only having one child isn't a compromise (I'm only likely to be able to have one child, but I'm a whole parent, not a bit of one). Nor is saying that you'll have a child but the parent who doesn't want it doesn't have to do any of the work or have anything to do with it.

Littlemisschocolate · 31/03/2019 08:11

Nope! I think you’re very wise. I envy my friends without kids. They’re not skint, exhausted and stressed! They’re also doing the environment a favour which is starting to concern me more and more.
My friends who don’t have kids have been able to do things they couldn’t do with kids. One founded and runs a charity for disabled orphans in a developing country. Another has a brilliant job and still finds time to visit an elderly friend in the care home. And they can watch what they want on the telly or just go for a walk without answering to anyone!!

I love my kids but I completely realise that there is more than one way to live a fulfilling life. And having a family is not better, but different!
*disclaimer: kids are hilarious and I do love them etc!!!!!

womandear · 31/03/2019 08:14

No of course not, nor would I judge a man who didn’t want kids. There are many, many ways to live a life.

Mississippilessly · 31/03/2019 08:15

No I dont want kids either! I just have the small problem of a 6mnth old son...

TheKrakening3 · 31/03/2019 08:23

I think a lot mean it and follow through. A lot also mean it at the time and change their minds. And there would also be people like me, who prior to unexpectedly meeting my DH and having kids, would declare I wanted a child-free life because that was a hell of a lot easier than saying I longed for children but was fairly certain it would never happen and I was devastated.

puppymouse · 31/03/2019 08:25

I don't think any of my friends would have judged. But my DM made it very clear as I was growing up "people who choose not to have children are weird and selfish"... she seemed to think the rite of passage of having to put your child's needs over your own was essential for being a well-rounded human being. I have a DD but I'm still bemused by her views on this.

PurpleDaisies · 31/03/2019 08:32

I envy my friends without kids. They’re not skint, exhausted and stressed!

Lucky them, but plenty of people without children are still all of those things.

PurpleDaisies · 31/03/2019 08:34

If a woman wanted children, how would the mn population feel about a husband denying them?

This comes up quite a lot. The view of mn is that he is absolutely fine not to want to have a child. The woman is totally within her rights to find a new partner who does want children.

AloneLonelyLoner · 31/03/2019 08:36

I wouldn't judge them. I'd applaud their common sense.

Dohangoversgetworseasyougetold · 31/03/2019 08:47

puppymouse - oh god, my mother too. She still goes on about women who don't have children being "cold" and "selfish" . I feel bad for saying this on Mother's Day, but having children absolutely did not stop my mother being selfish. She's the "look at my martyrdom" type rather than overtly selfish, but it still has to be all about her. And she's always sought to control my appearance, what I wear, what I do for a living, because I exist to reflect on her. I realised the other day that I get ridiculously stressed about DD having normal toddler winter illnesses, because my mother makes a big deal of being embarrassed that people might think she has a "sickly" grandchild.

Wishiwasonholiday1 · 31/03/2019 09:07

Absolutely not, I have friends who don't and I've never even thought about it. Children are not for everyone and in no way does that mean your life will be any less fulfilled. Sorry that you've experienced such judgy women.

silverliningsa · 31/03/2019 10:35

No, not at all. I have a couple of friends who don't want children and i've never judged, I totally get it. Why must everyone want children. With a one id be more surprised if they did want kids.

Lottapianos · 31/03/2019 10:55

'I feel bad for saying this on Mother's Day, but having children absolutely did not stop my mother being selfish. '

Same here. Selfish or toxic or narcissistic people remain so, even if they have kids. They may like to talk about what selfless martyrs they have become, and how it's all about the kids now, but actually they just see the kids as an extension of themselves, so really it's still all about them. Having a parent like that really opens your eyes to the dark side of family

clairemcnam · 31/03/2019 11:15

Totally agree that selfish people remain selfish mothers, but just extend it to their kids. So one woman I play sports with is incredibly selfish. Now she is a mother she is the one elbowing other kids out the way so her kid gets to do something first. She is still a selfish person, just her selfishness now includes her kid. I am sure she will think motherhood has made her less selfish though as she now puts her kid before herself.

GuidoTheKillerPimp · 31/03/2019 12:25

Never wanted children. Never regretted my choice. But I have spent my life enduring people whipping out reams of photsos of their children/grandchildren, telling me that ‘this’ll change your mind!”, as though I’ll be so enamoured of the cuteness of their progeny that I’ll realise what I’ve been missing.

Society generally doesn’t understand women who don’t want children, because it’s apparently our sole reason for existence. My partner (who has children) still isn’t entirely convinced that I don’t wish I’d reproduced. 🙄

youneverbloodyknowdoyousharon · 31/03/2019 13:39

Parenting - The Irrational Vocation

www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/parenting-the-irrational-vocation

The advent of cloning, surrogate motherhood, and the donation of gametes and sperm have shaken the traditional biological definition of parenthood to its foundations. The social roles of parents have similarly been recast by the decline of the nuclear family and the surge of alternative household formats.

Why do people become parents in the first place?

Raising children comprises equal measures of satisfaction and frustration. Parents often employ a psychological defense mechanism - known as "cognitive dissonance" - to suppress the negative aspects of parenting and to deny the unpalatable fact that raising children is time consuming, exhausting, and strains otherwise pleasurable and tranquil relationships to their limits.

Not to mention the fact that the gestational mother experiences "considerable discomfort, effort, and risk in the course of pregnancy and childbirth" (Narayan, U., and J.J. Bartkowiak (1999) Having and Raising Children: Unconventional Families, Hard Choices, and the Social Good University Park, PA: The Pennsylvania State University Press, Quoted in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy).

Parenting is possibly an irrational vocation, but humanity keeps breeding and procreating. It may well be the call of nature. All living species reproduce and most of them parent. Is maternity (and paternity) proof that, beneath the ephemeral veneer of civilization, we are still merely a kind of beast, subject to the impulses and hard-wired behavior that permeate the rest of the animal kingdom?

In his seminal tome, "The Selfish Gene", Richard Dawkins suggested that we copulate in order to preserve our genetic material by embedding it in the future gene pool. Survival itself - whether in the form of DNA, or, on a higher-level, as a species - determines our parenting instinct. Breeding and nurturing the young are mere safe conduct mechanisms, handing the precious cargo of genetics down generations of "organic containers".

Yet, surely, to ignore the epistemological and emotional realities of parenthood is misleadingly reductionistic. Moreover, Dawkins commits the scientific faux-pas of teleology. Nature has no purpose "in mind", mainly because it has no mind. Things simply are, period. That genes end up being forwarded in time does not entail that Nature (or, for that matter, "God") planned it this way. Arguments from design have long - and convincingly - been refuted by countless philosophers.

Still, human beings do act intentionally. Back to square one: why bring children to the world and burden ourselves with decades of commitment to perfect strangers?

First hypothesis: offspring allow us to "delay" death. Our progeny are the medium through which our genetic material is propagated and immortalized. Additionally, by remembering us, our children "keep us alive" after physical death.

These, of course, are self-delusional, self-serving, illusions..

Our genetic material gets diluted with time. While it constitutes 50% of the first generation - it amounts to a measly 6% three generations later. If the everlastingness of one's unadulterated DNA was the paramount concern - incest would have been the norm.

As for one's enduring memory - well, do you recall or can you name your maternal or paternal great great grandfather? Of course you can't. So much for that. Intellectual feats or architectural monuments are far more potent mementos.

Still, we have been so well-indoctrinated that this misconception - that children equal immortality - yields a baby boom in each post war period. Having been existentially threatened, people multiply in the vain belief that they thus best protect their genetic heritage and their memory.

Let's study another explanation.

The utilitarian view is that one's offspring are an asset - kind of pension plan and insurance policy rolled into one. Children are still treated as a yielding property in many parts of the world. They plough fields and do menial jobs very effectively. People "hedge their bets" by bringing multiple copies of themselves to the world. Indeed, as infant mortality plunges - in the better-educated, higher income parts of the world - so does fecundity.

In the Western world, though, children have long ceased to be a profitable proposition. At present, they are more of an economic drag and a liability. Many continue to live with their parents into their thirties and consume the family's savings in college tuition, sumptuous weddings, expensive divorces, and parasitic habits. Alternatively, increasing mobility breaks families apart at an early stage. Either way, children are not longer the founts of emotional sustenance and monetary support they allegedly used to be.

How about this one then:

Procreation serves to preserve the cohesiveness of the family nucleus. It further bonds father to mother and strengthens the ties between siblings. Or is it the other way around and a cohesive and warm family is conductive to reproduction?

Both statements, alas, are false.

Stable and functional families sport far fewer children than abnormal or dysfunctional ones. Between one third and one half of all children are born in single parent or in other non-traditional, non-nuclear - typically poor and under-educated - households. In such families children are mostly born unwanted and unwelcome - the sad outcomes of accidents and mishaps, wrong fertility planning, lust gone awry and misguided turns of events.

The more sexually active people are and the less safe their desirous exploits - the more they are likely to end up with a bundle of joy (the American saccharine expression for a newborn). Many children are the results of sexual ignorance, bad timing, and a vigorous and undisciplined sexual drive among teenagers, the poor, and the less educated.

Still, there is no denying that most people want their kids and love them. They are attached to them and experience grief and bereavement when they die, depart, or are sick. Most parents find parenthood emotionally fulfilling, happiness-inducing, and highly satisfying. This pertains even to unplanned and initially unwanted new arrivals.

Could this be the missing link? Do fatherhood and motherhood revolve around self-gratification? Does it all boil down to the pleasure principle?

Childrearing may, indeed, be habit forming. Nine months of pregnancy and a host of social positive reinforcements and expectations condition the parents to do the job. Still, a living tot is nothing like the abstract concept. Babies cry, soil themselves and their environment, stink, and severely disrupt the lives of their parents. Nothing too enticing here.

One's spawns are a risky venture. So many things can and do go wrong. So few expectations, wishes, and dreams are realized. So much pain is inflicted on the parents. And then the child runs off and his procreators are left to face the "empty nest". The emotional "returns" on a child are rarely commensurate with the magnitude of the investment.

If you eliminate the impossible, what is left - however improbable - must be the truth. People multiply because it provides them with narcissistic supply.

A Narcissist is a person who projects a (false) image unto others and uses the interest this generates to regulate a labile and grandiose sense of self-worth. The reactions garnered by the narcissist - attention, unconditional acceptance, adulation, admiration, affirmation - are collectively known as "narcissistic supply". The narcissist objectifies people and treats them as mere instruments of gratification.

Infants go through a phase of unbridled fantasy, tyrannical behavior, and perceived omnipotence. An adult narcissist, in other words, is still stuck in his "terrible twos" and is possessed with the emotional maturity of a toddler. To some degree, we are all narcissists. Yet, as we grow, we learn to empathize and to love ourselves and others.

This edifice of maturity is severely tested by newfound parenthood.

Babies evokes in the parent the most primordial drives, protective, animalistic instincts, the desire to merge with the newborn and a sense of terror generated by such a desire (a fear of vanishing and of being assimilated). Neonates engender in their parents an emotional regression.

The parents find themselves revisiting their own childhood even as they are caring for the newborn. The crumbling of decades and layers of personal growth is accompanied by a resurgence of the aforementioned early infancy narcissistic defenses. Parents - especially new ones - are gradually transformed into narcissists by this encounter and find in their children the perfect sources of narcissistic supply, euphemistically known as love. Really it is a form of symbiotic codependence of both parties.

Even the most balanced, most mature, most psychodynamically stable of parents finds such a flood of narcissistic supply irresistible and addictive. It enhances his or her self-confidence, buttresses self esteem, regulates the sense of self-worth, and projects a complimentary image of the parent to himself or herself.

It fast becomes indispensable, especially in the emotionally vulnerable position in which the parent finds herself, with the reawakening and repetition of all the unresolved conflicts that she had with her own parents.

If this theory is true, if breeding is merely about securing prime quality narcissistic supply, then the higher the self confidence, the self esteem, the self worth of the parent, the clearer and more realistic his self image, and the more abundant his other sources of narcissistic supply - the fewer children he will have. These predictions are borne out by reality.

The higher the education and the income of adults - and, consequently, the firmer their sense of self worth - the fewer children they have. Children are perceived as counter-productive: not only is their output (narcissistic supply) redundant, they hinder the parent's professional and pecuniary progress.

The more children people can economically afford - the fewer they have. This gives the lie to the Selfish Gene hypothesis. The more educated they are, the more they know about the world and about themselves, the less they seek to procreate. The more advanced the civilization, the more efforts it invests in preventing the birth of children. Contraceptives, family planning, and abortions are typical of affluent, well informed societies.

The more plentiful the narcissistic supply afforded by other sources - the lesser the emphasis on breeding. Freud described the mechanism of sublimation: the sex drive, the Eros (libido), can be "converted", "sublimated" into other activities. All the sublimatory channels - politics and art, for instance - are narcissistic and yield narcissistic supply. They render children superfluous. Creative people have fewer children than the average or none at all. This is because they are narcissistically self sufficient.

The key to our determination to have children is our wish to experience the same unconditional love that we received from our mothers, this intoxicating feeling of being adored without caveats, for what we are, with no limits, reservations, or calculations. This is the most powerful, crystallized form of narcissistic supply. It nourishes our self-love, self worth and self-confidence. It infuses us with feelings of omnipotence and omniscience. In these, and other respects, parenthood is a return to infancy.

Note: Parenting as a Moral Obligation
Do we have a moral obligation to become parents? Some would say: yes. There are three types of arguments to support such a contention:

(i) We owe it to humanity at large to propagate the species or to society to provide manpower for future tasks

(ii) We owe it to ourselves to realize our full potential as human beings and as males or females by becoming parents

(iii) We owe it to our unborn children to give them life.

The first two arguments are easy to dispense with. We have a minimal moral obligation to humanity and society and that is to conduct ourselves so as not to harm others. All other ethical edicts are either derivative or spurious. Similarly, we have a minimal moral obligation to ourselves and that is to be happy (while not harming others). If bringing children to the world makes us happy, all for the better. If we would rather not procreate, it is perfectly within our rights not to do so.

But what about the third argument?

Only living people have rights. There is a debate whether an egg is a living person, but there can be no doubt that it exists. Its rights - whatever they are - derive from the fact that it exists and that it has the potential to develop life. The right to be brought to life (the right to become or to be) pertains to a yet non-alive entity and, therefore, is null and void. Had this right existed, it would have implied an obligation or duty to give life to the unborn and the not yet conceived. No such duty or obligation exist.

Ellyess · 31/03/2019 13:45

Ellabella989. Absolutely not! That was my immediate reaction when I read the question on my email: "Do you judge women who don't want kids?" Before I even got to the website I was so entirely sure that it is the free choice of any woman whether she has a child or not! Nobody has the right to try and make her change her mind. It's her life, she knows herself and her circumstances, it is entirely her right to choose and everybody should support her!

Furthermore, I really do believe that those stalwarts who slog on working to keep things going while mothers take maternity leave deserve to have the option of extra holiday or extra pay. I have said so for a very long time. We do not remember that people work hard to take the strain, even if temp staff come in, when a full timer is on maternity leave. I am in favour of maternity leave but want those who carry the strain of it to be acknowledged too.

As for people nagging you and saying you don't know what you are missing etc. that is appalling! It is none of their business! As a mum of three daughters I have to say honestly that they are wonderful. But the honest truth is, being a parent is far from the glamour people make it out to be and that if a person decides that it is not for them, I truly respect their decision. It shows that you are a truly responsible person who has thought it through. After all the moment one is a parent one's life is changed forever. If only some more people who became lousy parents had made your decision!

Just lift your head up and calmly say it is none of their business! Then don't get into a discussion. They are too ignorant and pig-headed to bother to explain things to, you are way above their mentality.

Have a wonderful life Ellabella! Smile

youneverbloodyknowdoyousharon · 31/03/2019 13:54

People always tell me if I wait to have kids until I am ready then I'll never have them. That's exactly what I'm counting on Grin

Ellyess · 31/03/2019 14:27

youneverbloodyknowdoyousharon

Your long quote from Sam Vaknin, the twice (at least) diagnosed Narcissist and author of "Malignant Self Love, Narcism Revisited" is but one very blinkered view by a man who, by his own definition, is unable to understand people who do anything for anybody else except that which benefits themselves. He has no understanding of why a person might do a kind deed and never seek a reward. He has no understanding of responsibility for one's mistakes or wrong-doings either.

He does not understand pure and unconditional love. He has no appreciation of the drive to have a baby, the ache some parents have to create their own little child or the huge flood of love we feel as we stare at our new baby. He only sees this in reductionist terms of biological urges and chemicals. He does not understand that a parent really does not have cognitive dissonance about the number of stinky nappies he or she has changed. They accept it as part of parenthood because they love their child. Sam is incapable of love. He will tell you this. It is in his book. It is the basis of Narcissism - they "love" themselves and no other, yet even that is debatable since they seem to hate themselves and be trying to hid their faults and failures by hiding behind a persona that is grandiose and brilliant, all-successful and superior. I would not use anything he says about parenthood to support understanding of the matter. It does give huge insights into the mind of a malignant narcissist though.

AlexaAmbidextra · 31/03/2019 14:43

Hands up all those who scrolled by the tediously long thread. 😄

DownStreet · 31/03/2019 15:53

Dawkins commits the scientific faux-pas of teleology. Nature has no purpose "in mind", mainly because it has no mind. Things simply are, period. That genes end up being forwarded in time does not entail that Nature (or, for that matter, "God") planned it this way.

I gave up on the rest of the passage after this as anyone who has read The Selfish Gene should be able to understand that Dawkins says the exact opposite of what is claimed here.

zoellafortitude · 31/03/2019 15:58

Ellyess

I thought some of it was rather interesting! Although I like your reply too Smile I have read a bit about this man and he had who he believes was a narc for a mother. So presumably her motives for having him were not entirely selfless. He certainly suffered from a few cruel experiences.

He does not understand that a parent really does not have cognitive dissonance about the number of stinky nappies he or she has changed. They accept it as part of parenthood because they love their child

True, for those who do love their child and are not abusive towards it, this is true. But we know how many children have awful lives and are just not loved and cared for as they should be.

At the end of the day, it seems to be a bit a gamble really. I've seen people who have longed to become parents but did not enjoy it as they had hoped. I think they had ideas of Kodak moments and fixed ideas about what their child would go on to do (including producing the grandchildren). I worked with one married woman who was adamant she did not want, even like, children. She had an unplanned pregnancy and was worried as she had been drinking quite heavily at the time - well, she turned out to be a real Earth Mother Grin

From the outset though (and I think this is the point Sam is trying to make) there seems to be no logical reason to do it. Certainly, once the child exists it will (HOPEFULLY) experience the unconditional love of its parents. This unconditional love does not always appear though. For those children for whom it doesn't, it's truly sad and this is where people's pity should lie - not in those women who didn't want them in the first place.

MummaMooMoo · 31/03/2019 16:00

In the past, before I realised how ridiculous it was, I did say to one friend "you'll change your mind". She took it fine, and has changed her mind, but I have felt bad for it ever since & now I interrupt anyone I know making or receiving a similar comment with "that doesn't seem like your business", "comments like that probably aren't going to suddenly give her an uncontrollable desire for a baby", or my personal favourite, "what a weird thing for you to want to push on someone. What's that about?".

So many people are judgey about having children in particular, but I find that pulling people up on it does flick a switch quite quickly more often than not, so I can only think it's rife ignorance and "crowd mentality" at it's finest.

Lottapianos · 31/03/2019 16:06

'my personal favourite, "what a weird thing for you to want to push on someone. What's that about?".'

I like that. Pass the judgement back to them

Filibustering · 31/03/2019 16:10

I think that whoever quoted that lengthy chunk of Sam Vaknin - which is not without its interesting points should contextualise it with some facts about the author, who is an Israeli academic who has built a career on analyses of narcissism, who has himself been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (as part of his parole requirements when he was convicted of financial fraud, no less and on another occasion failed to meet the requirements for narcissistic personality disorder, but did meet the diagnostic requirements for psychopathy), and came from a miserably unhappy family background.

Elsewhere he much more self-revealingly says of children:

Children are loved by mothers, as I was not. They are bundled emotions, and happiness and hope. I am jealous of them, I am infuriated by my deprivation, I am fearful of the sadness and hopelessness that they provoke in me. Like music, they reify a threat to the precariously balanced emotional black hole that is myself. They are my past, my dilapidated and petrified True Self, my wasted potentials, my self-loathing and my defences. They are my pathology projected. I revel in my Orwellian narcissistic newspeak. Love is weakness, happiness is a psychosis, hope is malignant optimism. Children defy all this. They are proof positive of how different it could all have been.

But what I consciously experience is disbelief. I cannot understand how anyone can love these thuggish brats, their dripping noses, gelatinous fat bodies, whitish sweat, and bad breath. How can anyone stand their cruelty and vanity, their sadistic insistence and blackmail, their prevarication and deceit? In truth, no one except their parents can.

Children are always derided by everyone except their parents. There is something sick and sickening in a mother's affections. There is a maddening blindness involved, an addiction, a psychotic episode, it's sick, this bond, it's nauseous. I hate children. I hate them for being me.

samvak.tripod.com/narcissistchildren.html