Homophobia within the Muslim community

[thankssomuchforthat]

Please can we keep this thread calm and good natured as this is a genuine question.
I was genuinely shocked at a spokesperson for the Muslim community on GMB condemning gay people as sinful. Saying being gay is fundamentally wrong. Saying most Muslim people vehemently believe this. Is this true? Or are gay Muslims tolerated within the community? What would happen if a Muslim teenager was gay. Would the family disown them?
Genuine question. I suppose I mix in circles that are tolerant of homosexuality.
Please keep comments nice and friendly.

@limekiwi because at the moment hundreds of Muslims are protesting as the do not want their children taught about differences in the community the live in. If it was Christians protesting then the thread would be aimed at them and I doubt very much you would be questioning that.

About 1/3 of the congregation at my church are gay but many have come from congregations that shunned them or were even asked to leave by the vicar. We have no such issues here and I have a lovely rainbow flag ready to fly from the tower on gay pride day! We aren't literalists though, I haven't met a single person that believes in Adam and Eve, or in miracles for that matter - but we aren't a typical church or demographic

What we choose to have as values in the UK is one thing but we are not superior to go around saying our values must be adopted by Korea, Ghana, Mozambique, Egypt Peru etc even if we are convinced we are right and they are wrong

I absolutely hate this perspective. Endlessly having to pretend that “our values are no better or worse that anyone else’s values, they’re just different” is what leads situations like the one currently playing out in Birmingham. You know what? Our values are superior. Tolerance, acceptance, freedom of speech, championing the right of the individual to live as he/she wishes, democracy, the idea that an people are innocent until proven guilty... these are incredibly sophisticated ideas, developed over centuries, that allow people today incredible freedoms. It’s mind-boggling to me that people don’t have the guts to be proud of, and speak up on behalf of,
these values.

I know a Fundamentalist Christian who also said that it was the act of homosexual sex that was sinful, not feeling attracted to people of the same sex itself.

But other Christian and Jewish friends and family do not hold this view at all. My grandad, a committed Catholic, was openly gay and in gay relationships. No problem in community at all or at church.

I think that a lot of Christians are not at all doctrinal. Is it the case that in Islam too there are those for whom homosexuality, even in their own community, is no problem? Or is there a fundamental difference?

Hilbo - absolutely

We all know what ALL religious scriptures have to say about homosexuality.
But if you want to know how some Muslims behave (which is obviously NOT strictly Islamic), have a look at Pakistan- throughout the country gay and transgender people have lived within communities and are accepted normal and this is not a new phenomena.
They are also now rallying and pushing for equal rights, much like their counterparts in the western world also lobby for better recognition and rights.
Being gay is frowned upon but that doesn't mean that gay people don't exist and aren't tolerated.
I'm also somewhat bemused by the op posting such a question - do you really think that the whole global Muslim community, (with all the cultural differences between countries, races and backgrounds), their collective opinion on homosexuality can be answered on mumsnet?!!
That plus the very vague understanding of Islam as a religion all gets rolled into one giant ridiculous stereotype that is then applied to every unassuming Muslim you meet!
Wonderful.

In any very traditional religion, there will be homophobia. It's the same in Hinduism, in Christianity, and in Judaism (the only religions I have much experience of - I'm Jewish). The most ardently homophobic people I know are right wing Christians though.

But there are also communities within Islam that challenge this. There is a group called Hidayah, which supports LGBTQ+ muslims. And there are lots of Muslim drag performers and very visible queer Muslims. But no, you aren't going to find much support amongst the crazy right wingers in any traditionalist religion.

I don't think you can brush the entire Muslim community with the same brush.
As with all religions and all of humanity, there are people that are understanding are those that are not.
Homosexuality is not allowed in Islam as it isn't in most religions, but that doesn't mean that they will be ostracised.
A Muslim parent is the same as any other parent-as in they love their children regardless. Gay or not.
And yes there are the extreme cases too. As there are of other religion and non religious people, who will not accept their child is gay.

Gay people will not be stopped from entering the mosque. Everyone is welcome to pray.
Please don't assume because of one person's ideas that the entire Muslim community has the same feelings.
I am Muslim too

@hilbobaggins I am not saying these values are of equal values to tolerance freedom of speech etc or that we should be in anyway ashamed of our views, but saying because Western imposition has gone down so badly in the past it is understandable that certain groups and nations are going to be possibly affronted sceptical etc about a change of values in the past 50 years from values which had been accepted for thousands of years and to disagree that the new values do not fit in with their values and we are not just going to accept a change in one aspect of western values just because the west say so. Many former colonies ie Ghana have moved to democracies much quicker than the West developed this ideas they fought hard for independence from the British in this case, a lot of our legal systems have been imbedded in their new legal systems and with time they may change their views on marriage too but being told by Neo Western philosophical imperialists ( which is how they are often seen whether this is their intention or not; I believe many truly want to help) that they must is not going to go well and will stoke up more ill feeling against the West
Saying something is a sin is not the same as saying something is illegal
Most people think that adultery / cheating is a horrible thing to do some people call it sin others just think it is bad behaviour very few think it is right good choice however it is not illegal, but being legal doesn't necessarily make something good
So in a Muslim household ( i'm not a Muslim) it is possible to say that Homosexuality is legal in the UK but we believe it to be immoral sinful etc and against God's will, this is what the law says about non discrimination but this is what God's says about how we should live
This is what non discrimination means the gay person should not be treated badly or refused services or stopped living the way they choose but freedom of religion and speech means that you do not have to agree that this is the right moral choice or be forced to act against your beliefs, this is what the Asher case was about
They could and did not refuse to make cakes for gay people but their freedom of religion means they can't be forced to say what they do not believe
I would not expect a Muslim printer to print books about how Jesus is God, I would expect them to print business cards with the name and address of a christian minister/ accountant / jeweller
I don't expect a halal or Kosher butcher to sell pork, or a Jewish bookseller to sell Bibles or Korans or a vegan deli to stock ham or accept adverts for the sausage festival in their village

Muslim here. Yes many Muslims do believe this. However the vast majority of Muslims are tolerant of people they consider to be sinners.

For example, I drink and had relationships before marriage. Most of my Muslim friends believe that consequently I am likely to go to hell. However, that doesn't stop them from being nice to me as it's not up to them to judge.

In most branches of Islam it is accepted that it is Allah's place to judge, and only in limited circumstances is it up to people to exact punishment on others.

For what it's worth I personally dont think homosexuals will necessarily go to Hell - there are so many awful things that happen in the world, but I dont believe loving someone should be classed as sinful.

I am really suproced as to why this comes as shock to you . All religions of the book do not "support" gay relationships its not just islam

All the Muslims in my family are accepting of gay people.

I had a Muslim girlfriend who hid her entire life from her family. They disowned her gay brother and she eventually got engaged to a Muslim guy. No idea what became of her - I hope she didn’t marry him, she wasn’t bi

As I see it, from a LGBT perspective, Muslim attitudes are on par with evangelical Christians who think LGBT people are ‘sinners’ and while you can love the person you cannot love the ‘sin’. Personally I don’t care what people believe in until it starts to affect the civil rights of others or their ‘beliefs’ start to come into our school system in a negative way. I’m not here to be tolerated by anyone, i’m Not looking for permission to exist as a gay woman. - teaching acceptance of other faiths, cultures, sexualities and ethnicity should be absolutely standard in U.K. state schools. Given what some children appear to be taught at home, from right wing extremism, to homophobia and racism, we need it.

I doubt very much you'd be questioning that

I would, bizarre assumption to make! I'd still be of the view that it's a lot of religions and not just a Muslim one!
As some have pointed out, some Muslims are more tolerant than others - and that goes for say Christians too.

Exactly @sailorsdelight especially your first paragraph

Dia12:
"I'm also somewhat bemused by the op posting such a question - do you really think that the whole global Muslim community, (with all the cultural differences between countries, races and backgrounds), their collective opinion on homosexuality can be answered on mumsnet?!!"
I wasnt talking about the 'whole global Muslim community', I was specifically talking about how gay people are treated within the UK Muslim community and if this guy on GMB is reflective of the general views held or if he was an extremist compared to most Muslim communities.
I'm just interested in hearing peoples stories, not doing a thesis on world religion. I think its nice to hear peoples stories and attempt to understand what is happening 'on the ground'. Its always a healthy thing to discuss things civilly and politely. Sorry if I didnt explain my intention clearly.

Exactly what @ hilbobaggins said

But @ machinician gay people are not to be "tolerated" no prizes should be given to those who simply "tolerate" them. That implies there is something wrong with the person but there is not. Its not about tolerating it is about accepting. I think the lessons are are needed to promote this.

It's not strictly true to say ALL monotheistic religions are homophobic. I'm a Reform Jew, and everyone is treated equally regardless of sexuality and gender.

@twomadefour but this issue has arisen because the majority of parents in a school which equates to the majority of the parents at the school have staged protests against the teaching of acceptence. That is a lot of "extreme cases" in one school.

Some religions are more widespread homophobic than others

CofE have gay vicars so that’s saying something

Bottom line gay Muslim equals major suffering sadly and like ostracism

I’ve been involved in a normal CoE church and lots of people would welcome any gay or trans person, and did so. I know some church youth groups have specific LGBT meet ups. I’m sure others were more closed minded but the church needs as many followers as possible, especially the young so they need to change with the times. No idea about catholics. Religious people aren’t automatically anti homosexuality.

I get the impression that religious or cultural groups can be more extreme when a minority or feel threatened- so in Ireland the Catholics were more religious than those in France etc, while the DUP are scary strict compared to English Protestants.

I personally dont think homosexuals will necessarily go to Hell

That must come as a relief to them. Of sorts.

@recrudescence I meant as in no more likely to go to hell than a heterosexual person.

It doesn't make a difference to me anyway as I personally dont believe in hell - it doesn't seem like a just system to me.