To find this unfair

[user1496701154]

to find religious schools applications unfair. Saying you have to be practicing that religion. I can respect it but you have to be practicing. To apply I find it to be discriminationing

Faith schools do not get better results for their cohort than non faith schools they just carefully select their cohort
Not forcibly. Our CoE secondary school used to get the worse results in town. It was also located in the the most deprived areas and took on 50% of the local cohort. Then a new Headteacher came and within 3 years totally turn it around and became the best performing school. This led to more CoE parents from further afield wanting a place there and families rediscovering religion. The ratio changed to take on more religious affiliated kids. The school continue to perform well until the Head left. Within 2xyesfs of the new Head, the school results started to go down.

I think Headteachers have much more influence on a school's performance than the pupils it attracts.

I certainly don't struggle to understand the concept of religious schools but they are often found to be unscrupulous.

If you happen to be near a faith school and you don't like it, apply somewhere else or move. Faith people have as much right to a school than you do.

But why should they have a greater right than others?

what happens is exactly the opposite: parents move close to best school, and move out as soon as they got 1 space secure that the other siblings are safe.

This happens only very rarely, due to the fact that moving house frequently is expensive. Admissions authorities are taking an increasingly tough line on parents who try taking short term rentals near the schools they want. It doesn't remotely compare to the hundreds of children with an unfair advantage through the availability of faith schools.

Instead of looking at faith schools you don't agree with, remove them from your list! it's not unfair that they exist and you have a choice.

Why do you keep insisting that people have a choice, thedisorganisedmum, when (a) it is obvious that the existence of faith schools means that some families have a more limited choice and (b) people have cited a number of examples here where in practice they have little or no choice because all their local schools are faith schools?

I don't think that religion has any place in the education system whatsoever. My daughter didn't get into the school at the end of our road on thise grounds. How they can teach science while telling kids that the world is only 4000 years old I will never understand!

How they can teach science while telling kids that the world is only 4000 years old

what religion does teach that?

People saying I've put my belief on others when have I said that I'd love to know and I've never mentioned it been to do with DC have i

I applied for a job as a trainer in a gym. I am flabby, rarely exercise and don't know one of an exercise machine from another.

The fact that I didn't even get an interview I can ascribe only to discrimination.

If faith schools had the worst results in the country, you would not care one bit.

I would, actually. I'd be even more pissed off that public money was being used to support them. In fact a number of faith schools have been closed down as a result of serious concerns about them.

Oh, same thing with my application to be an astronaut. I don't have any kind of science background and have little interest in space exploration.

Discrimination of the rankest kind.

All our local schools within 10 miles are religious state schools. Should I (a) drive 11 miles to the 16th nearest one to get to a secular one or (b) find religion or (c) just apply to the nearest one and hope my kids are found to be more worthy of a state funded education than God-fearing kids from miles away?

Does anyone really think that the taxpayers‘ money should be focussed on church schools and all children from non-churchgoing families should be excluded from their local schools because ‘having faith’ makes a child more deserving of an education? Who thinks that?

Oh, same thing with my application to be an astronaut. I don't have any kind of science background and have little interest in space exploration.Discrimination of the rankest kind

More like: if a state funded space program refused to hire an astronaut for being an athiest.

Nope. More like my local church refused my application to be a priest although I'm an agnostic and have no interest in religion.

I'd be even more pissed off that public money was being used to support them
That make no sense,. So good faith schools should accept everyone be s'use otherwise its unfair, but poorly performing ones should be shut down above poor performing state schools.

It proves my point. Parents are only pissed off about faith schools because they want their kids to go to the best schools but can't because they don't meet the criteria. And I say that as mum to kids who didn't get to go to the faith school most of their friends went, half of who discovered religion for the two years prior to putting their name down (quickly forgotten afterwards) and wouldn't have chosen it anyway even if they could have gone.

Does anyone really think that the taxpayers‘ money should be focussed on church schools and all children from non-churchgoing families should be excluded from their local schools because ‘having faith’ makes a child more deserving of an education? Who thinks that
I thought they had to offer some places to non faith local kids, especially if there are no non faith schools nearby. At least that's how it in my LEA.

I would have removed her from the faith aspects and the school would have had to accommodate.

well, yes, because entitled parents do think an entire school needs to adapt. We all know parents like that, in any kind of school!

You do know, don't you, disorganised, that by law schools have to accommodate the right of parents to withdraw their children from acts of worship? It's not a matter of asking the school to adapt; all schools should automatically have a system in place to enable them to comply with their legal obligations.

AstonishedFemalePersonator, please continue to miss the point. The discrimination comes from there being less choices for those who aren’t CoE or Catholic (or whatever else is the majority religious school in your area). So it’s actually not about trying to be a priest without faith, more like trying to get a job at your local McDonald’s and being told no because you don’t like Big Macs, they generally only hire people who at least eat McFlurries once a week.

Faith schools do not get better results for their cohort than non faith schools they just carefully select their cohort.
based on ... their faith.

No. Based on the fact that they manage to get endorsement from a religious organisation. That might be based on genuine faith, or it might be based on the fact that the families in question have turned up at a service once a week for a few years despite having little or no faith.

So good faith schools should accept everyone be s'use otherwise its unfair, but poorly performing ones should be shut down above poor performing state schools.

That isn't what I said, swingofthings, and misrepresenting me really doesn't help your argument. The post in question was in response to one claiming that no-one would care if faith schools had the worst results in the country, and I pointed out that I would be even more unhappy that they were in receipt of public money if that were the case. Nowhere did I say that poorly performing faith schools should be closed down before poorly performing state schools, or indeed academies and free schools.

It proves my point. Parents are only pissed off about faith schools because they want their kids to go to the best schools but can't because they don't meet the criteria.

Well no, it proves the opposite.

Have you actually looked at the posts on this thread? It is very clear that parents are pissed off because the existence of faith schools means that some children have a far greater choice of publicly funded schools than others. Why do faith school supporters so consistently ignore that issue?

If you want to take religion out of it, imagine going to a brilliant nightclub, but it only prioritises skinny blonde people. I mean you could get in if you’re not those things, but you’re way down on the list. Or of course you could go on a crash diet and dye your hair just to get in, but why should you?

Have you tried getting into a goth club with the wrong hair and boots? Ha!

For most schools religious criteria is usually at the bottom. Well below catchment criteria. If it's your closest school you should get in because catchment is usually well above faith criteria.

Have you tried getting into a goth club with the wrong hair and boots?

Actually yes, with no problems. My university town had a few ‘alternative’ clubs and pubs, but never had an issue. That’s going off tangent though .

As if the current arrangements aren't bad enough, it seems they're about to get worse: humanism.org.uk/2019/02/28/government-gives-green-light-for-new-voluntary-aided-schools-to-convert-to-academies-thus-circumventing-50-cap/

"The UK Government has given the green light for new, 100% religiously selective voluntary aided (VA) schools to immediately convert to academies once opened, allowing them to bypass the 50% cap restricting how many students they can discriminate against if they opened as academies to start with, whilst still receiving 100% of their funding from the state"

Based on the fact that they manage to get endorsement from a religious organisation. That might be based on genuine faith, or it might be based on the fact that the families in question have turned up at a service once a week for a few years despite having little or no faith.

not sure what other data or criteria than attendance they could use, but regardless, it has nothing to do with school records and pupils aptitude - which was what I was answering to, the faith schools don't chose the brightest or most able pupils, so that shouldn't have an impact on the results...

bypass the 50% cap restricting how many students they can discriminate against

sounds like a very neutral and purely fact based article

faith schools don't chose the brightest or most able pupils, so that shouldn't have an impact on the results...

and I have already explained to you that research has proven that it does.

And the article does have a bias, yes, but the fact remains - there was theoretically a cap on the number of children who could be selected purely on the basis of their faith, and for the new schools that cap is not going to exist. They will be able to select all their pupils on the basis of faith. I could go and find the government's own document for you, but I can't really be bothered.

Clearly you aren't interested in facts unless they support your own viewpoint. All the other facts and arguments you have been presented with have quite passed you buy. And you still haven't been able to give a reason WHY faith schools should be allowed to discriminate other than "why shouldn't they, if that is what some people want?"

To me, that frankly isn't good enough.