To find this unfair

[user1496701154]

to find religious schools applications unfair. Saying you have to be practicing that religion. I can respect it but you have to be practicing. To apply I find it to be discriminationing

Why should faith be any part of my child’s education, a place for factual learning should be a safehaven from religious influence.
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so apply to a non-faith school.

Thing is, there are very few truly secular schools; largely because Christianity is the state religion and is so ingrained into society that it permiates secular activities without most people even noticing.

Example:
There are 3 Primaries in my area. 1 RC, 1 CofE, 1 non-religious. DC goes to the non-religious one.
Yet, there is an annual nativity play. There are no other religious performances or observations. There is only 1 secular one (Healthy eating) and only in 1 year group.
The children make Christmas and Easter cards. They do not do this for other religious festivals. they do, however, for Mother's/Father's day too, I will concede.
In his RE book (as seen last parent's evening), multiple religions are taught. I like this, Religious Education and Instruction are different. But, there are subtle changes in the language between Christian and 'other' that present Christian as 'correct' or 'truth' and give a sense of inclusion - a 'we' vs 'what others think'. Two tasks in his book - 1. draw what Hindus think Ganesha looks like; 2. draw what you think God looks like [not what Christian's think their god looks like, but to imply the one true god].
The school has occasional visits from the local priest/vicar/not sure which; not other religious figures, not non-religious figures who might do a talk on philosophy.
My father died just after last Christmas. DS (7) has questions. He also has quite a lot of info about Christian concepts of heaven, and no other concepts of after-life. He didn't pick up that concept at home.

So, to answer OP - no faith schools can exclude who they like, but only if...1. No state funding for faith schools - they can be paid for by the faith/full; and 2. No insidious creeping in of doctrine to secular schools

Why is faith considered more discriminatory than being a looked after child, having a sibling in the school, or distance?

Really??? You are really asking this?

Yes, the above are discriminatory. Of course they are. But most sane and compassionate people would realise that most looked after children have had a lot of disadvantage in their young lives and will continue to suffer that disadvantage. If they had to join a waiting list every time they were forced to move home and carer many would also receive no education. So a device that offers them an advantage above others has been introduced in order to counter the general disadvantage the suffer. I really don't think you can argue with that, it is entirely different from the Faith argument.

Siblings and distance from school - well, from a societal viewpoint it is best if siblings both go to one school and everyone has a chance to attend their closest school. Not only does it help build communities, not only does it assist parents to be economically active (it being hard to deliver to/collect from 3 different schools and still get to/from work on time - believe me, I have tried) it also will theoretically cut down on traffic pollution.

However, if we are being fair it would be best to bring in a lottery system. You apply to your preferred 5 schools, and schools select the children who are going to be given places randomly.

But anyway, even if this was the case - you still have the fact that Faith schools are allowed to discriminate on the basis of Faith, and I haven't yet heard a single good reason why they SHOULD be allowed to. If something is discriminatory surely it should have to have a very good reason to be? Not simply "well, we want to, so if you don't like it fuck off and live somewhere else"?

that is not facts, that's your opinion

Where is the proof of religious beliefs? Where is the weighted evidence? You want the same religion taught in schools that claims that the world was created in six days by a deity along side science that has facts about the Big Bang and evolution? It contradicts actual facts, how can you justify unproven faith having such a strong hold over the British school system?

Half the country doesn’t have a set belief these days, the rest is divided into many different faiths, why should Catholicism and the CoE have so many faith schools funded regardless? They are not the majority voice, even if it seems that way. More are coming out against faith schools, and are starting to see how truly unjust the system is.

faith schools don’t have catchment areas and can pick and choose who they want

And (as the whole point of the thread) that’s discrimination in black and white. Schools, the place that is compulsory for children to go to, should never have the power to ‘pick and chose’ based on lifestyle choices.

As long as not all schools are faith schools in this country, and you can apply to a non-faith school, then we have no problem.

What about the woman in Cornwall upthread whose only state nursery in eighteen miles was a faith school? What realistic choice does she have?

As long as not all schools are faith schools in this country, and you can apply to a non-faith school, then we have no problem.

No that's not good enough. My child deserves as much choice in schools as religious children.

well, from a societal viewpoint it is best if siblings both go to one school and everyone has a chance to attend their closest school

but what happens is exactly the opposite: parents move close to best school, and move out as soon as they got 1 space secure that the other
siblings are safe.
Children have a longer commute, local kids do not have a place in their nearest school.

Distance - I agree is the best criteria, we do need one.
you could still argue that it's not that fair either when only parents who can afford the premium for local properties can apply.

Instead of looking at faith schools you don't agree with, remove them from your list! it's not unfair that they exist and you have a choice.
They are based around a faith, why on earthy wouldn't they give priority to children of that faith?

I am getting so bored of people complaining about the faith element of a faith school - that's what they are! How difficult to understand

If you chose a bilingual school for your kids, you won't argue that the children speak too much German or Chinese in it, will you? If you want your kids to speak English at school, you apply to English speaking school (which is not too difficult in the UK).

AllMYSmellySocks
no, what you want is access of a top school who has good results because of the faith of the people whilst imposing your own beliefs.

If faith schools had the worst results in the country, you would not care one bit.

Your children have the same choice as any other children, the choices you give them by selecting your area and the kind of schools you apply to.

it's not unfair that they exist and you have a choice

I don’t know how to say it any clearer. Yes it’s unfair they exist when they’re using state funding and NO, not everyone has a choice.

I’m alright, Jack though?

thedisorganisedmum can you address the issue of what people living in rural areas where schools are few and far between should do? Is your argument that people of no faith should simply not live in the countryside?

If faith schools had the worst results in the country, you would not care one bit

The one we were given, a number of years ago now was the worst performing school in the area. Interestingly in the time since we applied for primary places, across the board the non-faith schools are much higher performing.

Your children have the same choice as any other children, the choices you give them by selecting your area and the kind of schools you apply to

No. No they don’t. Because if you’re not prepared to play the system - which let’s face it is morally questionable - you simply don’t have the chance.

Would I have sent my daughter to a faith school if it was adequate? Yes. I would have removed her from the faith aspects and the school would have had to accommodate.

Your children have the same choice as any other children

No they don’t, that’s the whole bloody point .

TaMereAPoilDevantPrisu
I don't disagree that there isn't enough school, or that school having to close Friday afternoons due to lack of funding are a positive thing.

I had to relocate to be near my kids schools, it's not ideal but we had no choice.

If people are so against faith school, why would they want their kids there in the first place, and complain about discrimination.
Is it fair to give priorities to a certain faith to attend a faith school? Yes. Do they have to accept a set number of non-faith children? yes.

complete non-issue

If faith schools had the worst results in the country, you would not care one bit

Shit or brilliant, I personally don’t want any faith school to exist, especially from public funding. However, most of them get good results because of the fact they get to pick and chose their pupils, funny that.

I would have removed her from the faith aspects and the school would have had to accommodate.

well, yes, because entitled parents do think an entire school needs to adapt. We all know parents like that, in any kind of school!

most of them get good results because of the fact they get to pick and chose their pupils
not based on their school results, so not sure what your point is

complete non-issue

Because it doesn’t affect you....what a depressing mindset you must have.

So if your solution is that non-religious parents should relocate to be near non-faith schools, then that's vast swathes of the country that are off limits. Yeah very fair, and I'm sure that won't have any unintended knock-on effects on the fragile rural economy and employment at all.

JacquesHammer
I am like most of the parents who had to decide where to live and how to organise their lives based on the school location! I had the choice to go near or not to faith school, so no, non-issue. We all have the same choice.

Again, people who are given a faith school against their will do have a right to complain, but that's not the subject of the thread. Moaning because applications to a faith school ask about your faith and take it into account. I mean, seriously?

TaMereAPoilDevantPrisu
interesting username

We all have the same choice

I find it hard to believe you can be so ignorant, so I’m going with deliberately goady.

Moaning because applications to a faith school ask about your faith and take it into account. I mean, seriously?

No. Not seriously.

Moaning because state funding goes to schools that discriminate? Absolutely that’s an issue.

I said repeatedly if a school wants to be selective on whatever grounds by all means go for it. It shouldn’t be state funded for that privilege though.

We don't let employers discriminate except in very limited cases, yet it's fine to discriminate against children?

A very valid point

I mean, seriously?

Yes, seriously! You had the ability to chose to move, most people don’t. You obviously do not care if nonsense from 2000 years ago is pushed on your children at school, others do. So if you can’t move and don’t like faith schools, what are you meant to do? How is it fair that they get less or possibly no choice at all?

Faith is a lifestyle choice and has no bases to be taken into account in compulsory education.

I am getting so bored of people complaining about the faith element of a faith school - that's what they are! How difficult to understand

Nobody is complaining about the faith element of faith schools. What we are complaining about is:

1. no school should have the right to discriminate against someone on the basis of their religion or lack of religion.

1. state funding and education should not include religious indoctrination. Teach about all religions by all means, but the only reason for having a faith school is to facilitate indoctrination. This is not what schools are for. Indoctrinate your children in your own time.

incidentally - according to the latest figures I can find, approx 1/3 of all UK schools are run by religious groups. That is a huge number of schools which are available to some children but not others. you can't pretend that it is an insignificant issue.

It's not unfair. When you Practice a religion and are part of s community you should get preference over people who don't practice