To find this unfair

[user1496701154]

to find religious schools applications unfair. Saying you have to be practicing that religion. I can respect it but you have to be practicing. To apply I find it to be discriminationing

I see no discrimination, I haven't see any in all the posts. It's NOT what discrimination is.

thedisorganisedmum, look at a situation where you have family A who are practising Christians next to family B who are not. There are four schools within three miles, but all of them are faith schools. There are two more non-faith schools between three and five miles away, but they operate distance criteria and fill up with children who live within a two mile radius. Moving is not an option for family B for a number of good reasons. That means that family A has a choice of four nearby schools, whereas family B can't get into any of the four faith schools and ends up being placed somewhere six miles away and having to spend the next 6 years possibly travelling for two or more hours a day.

Given that the four nearby schools are paid for by the state, and indeed taxes paid by the B parents, why is not remotely discriminatory that their children can't get into those schools purely because they're the wrong faith?

And don't try the "Look over there" argument. Just because discrimination exists in other contexts, it doesn't meant that there is no discrimination via the faith school system.

You can't even argue that your non religious child cannot attend the faith school because they all accept non religious children

Not a valid argument, given that at best they accept a minority of non-faith children. In a number of faith schools the reality is that non-religious children come right at the end of the list of admissions criteria and, if the school is popular, that means they stand zero chance of getting in.

Everyone has the same number of choices so that's not a genuine argument against them.

How is that remotely true, swingofthings? If there are five schools available locally but three are faith schools, it follows that children of the relevant faith have the choice of five schools whereas others only have the choice of two schools. How is that "the same number of choices"?

Who says that the school would be there if it wasn't a faith school?

You can bet it would. If churches were told that they could keep running the schools but couldn't discriminate on the basis of faith, either they would swallow that and carry on, or they would give up and (unless it was already poorly subscribed or constantly failing Ofsted) the school would convert to an academy or an academy would be set up in alternative premises.

Our DD goes to a catholic school, we aren't even slightly religious, about 50% of the students are not catholic.

That aside, no I wouldn't find it unfair if a religious school only accepted applications from people of their own faith.

@pregnantsea we chose to send our DD to a catholic school because of the program it runs, it uses a teaching model similar to Montessori and is the only one with that kind of program that we have access to.

The children to spend a small amount of time most days doing RE and it is a school requirement that parents should not 'pooh pooh' religion, we generally say nothing and when our DD is older she can make up her own mind, she does know that we don't really believe in God but we don't make a big deal of it.

My youngest went to a religious school, nothing religious about us. If it's the closest school in your area then that helps.

If there are five schools available locally most parents don't care for 5 schools, they usually want one or possibly two schools. Choice 4 or 5, if stated, is usually either schools further away anyway or put down in desperation just to ensure not to end up with no place at all. How many pare ts would pick the faith school as a 5th choice is it was a poorly performing school? Very few I expect.

As for the discrimination, I could claim that my kids were discriminated against because the none of the secondary schools in our catchment area offered GCSEs in law, business studies, psychology, but instead offered many arty GCSEs that children didn't care all about. How is it any different?

There is a Faith school down the road from us. It would be easier for me if my children went there but instead I send them to a non faith school about a mile away. Parents from the faith school told me that because their children are not of the same faith, they are excluded from class on a regular basis. They wished that they hadnt sent theirs there.

it is a school requirement that parents should not 'pooh pooh' religion

If that's a state school, it's a completely unenforceable requirement. I wonder what they do about their statutory duty to allow parents to withdraw their children from acts of worship?

most parents don't care for 5 schools, they usually want one or possibly two schools.

How is that in any way relevant to my question, which was " If there are five schools available locally but three are faith schools, it follows that children of the relevant faith have the choice of five schools whereas others only have the choice of two schools. How is that "the same number of choices?" You can't logically or rationally spin that into offering the same number of choices, no matter how you phrase it. If you are selling cars and you tell one set of customers that they can choose any one of a range of ten colours, but another set that they can only choose black or white, are you seriously claiming that set two can only pick one car so has exactly the same number of choices?

Why is the number of choice an issue of dis rumination if ultimately you are only interested in 1 or 2 of the choices available to you? You're making a point over something that isn't one.

Or are you trying to say that if the faith school in you catchment area is excellent in every way, you'd prefer to be given the choice of five mediocre or poor schools closer to you rather than the only choice of going to that faith school which is a bit further way? I very much doubt it!

@acis it is a private, catholic school.

The UK faith school system is state backed segregation and benefits wealthy families. These schools are funded by the state in the same way that a hospital or the fire brigade is. Imagine not being allowed access to a hospital because you practise the wrong or no religion?

There is a campaign at the moment by Humanists UK to ban faith schools. Where I live most primary schools have strict religious entry criteria which discriminated against my family and the families of many others. The alternative for us is a not very good primary academy which is also further away.

Faith schools are allowed to admit 100% of their pupils using religious selection criteria which, in the case of the schools near me, involves regular worship at the associated church and being baptised. There are 8 selection criteria and right down at the bottom are kids of not faith. So basically, kids with no faith don’t stand a chance.

These faith schools tend to outperform the non-faith schools for the simple reason that the school is allowed to hand pick the pupils. They meet the kids and the parents and can reject them based on their very long list of admission criteria. And it tends to be the more wealthy parents who can afford to pretend to be religious to make their kids eligible. They have the time to give up their Sunday mornings to go to church because they don’t do the kinds of jobs that require weekend or shift working, they can afford a baptism for the sake of a piece of paper and they have the balls and connections to get chummy with the right people. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are also nice fat donations to the church too.

This system is wholly unique to the UK, and especially to England. A good state education should be a basic human right for children rather than reserved for select groups of society.

And for those who think religious kids need a special kind of religious education/environment - this is absolute nonsense. Almost all UK faith schools are Christian and involve very very little religious education beyond what appears in the curriculum for all state schools. I went to a religious school (it was the only one for miles around and it had no selection criteria) and all it meant was that we sang hymns and read the Lord’s Prayer in assembly. As an atheist I didn’t find that the least bit offensive (although I think it is entirely out of place in an educational setting).

Segragating children is not a good thing on any ground.

@swingofthings we have mostly faith primary schools where we live. There are two non faith primaries which perform badly. These are the admission criteria for the faith schools (the same for each faith school but the church name changes):

(i) Children who are in public care or children who have been previously looked after but ceased to be so because they were adopted (or became subject to a residence order or special guardianship order). Evidence will be requested to support this status. (Children who are looked after are some times called children in public care.)

(ii) Children whose parents worship at St Gabriel’s at least monthly and have done so for at least a year.

(iii) Children whose parents worship at least monthly and have done so for at least a year in other Anglican Churches.

(iv) Children whose parents worship at least monthly and have done so for at least a year in other Christian Churches (as defined by the Churches Together in Britain and Ireland).

(v) Children who are baptised Anglicans (baptismal form will be required).

(vi) Children who are baptised by other Christian rites (baptismal form will be required).

In each of the categories ii – vi parents should provide a supporting statement from their priest or minister.

(vii) Children who have siblings, already in the school, at date of entry to Reception Class. A sibling is defined as a brother or sister, half brother or sister or step brother or sister whose main residence is at the same address.

(viii) Children whose parents live in the parishes of St Gabriel’s, St Saviour’s and St James the Less.

(ix) Children of other faiths who practise their faith at least monthly and have done so for at least a year. (Supporting Statement from Religious leader required)

(x) Children who do not meet any of the previous criteria

And these schools are LEGALLY allowed to admit 100% of their pupils based on any of the above criteria so would be able to take all pupils based on criteria number 1 if they wanted (and some of them do).

How can you possibly defend this? My daughter will start school soon and will have very limited options and will likely end up in a poorly performing school.

These schools are ALL funded by the tax payer but my daughter cannot attend them. These schools hand pick the best kids from the area after meeting them and their parents. This is pure discrimination.

@user1480880826, I never said I agreed with faith schools. I'm not religious and my kids missed out on a place in the -the-top school as a result.

What annoys me is that I do not believe for a second that the reason many parents are outraged by it is not because of the principle but because they happen to usually be the better schools. If it was the other way around, the non faith schools doing great and the faith schools not, and non faith kids were missing out on places because faith kids opted to go to the non faith schools instead, parents would complain that the state pays for faith schools and therefore religious kids should be made to go there.

It has little to do with religion but the frustration of not getting a place in the best schools. I've seen the desperation parents will g to to get their kids in top schools justifying their actions to do so because they are so convinced the future of their kids lie in them going to such school.

@theswingofthings I’m angry because non religious kids get a worse education in areas where this system exists. So yes, because these schools are better. But I’m also angry because I’m a country where we’re actively trying to reduce islamiphobia, homophobia, sexism etc etc we are segregating our children throughout their entire education so that they only come into contact with people like them.

Kids should all be allowed access to the same quality of education as a constitutional right and we should actively encourage inclusion and open mindedness for the benefit of society.

For all of these reasons I also disagree with the private school system. Have a look at what they’ve recently done in Finland where they have scrapped private schools and instead focus on providing a high quality and inclusive education system for all.

swingofthings, no matter how you try to spin it, it is obvious that a choice out of five schools is more than a choice out of two schools. And if you live in an area where all the nearest schools are faith schools and cannot move, your only choice is to make your child spend large chunks of their day travelling throughout their schooldays. Where that situation is brought about by state funded schools it really is unconscionable.

These faith schools tend to outperform the non-faith schools for the simple reason that the school is allowed to hand pick the pupils ... I wouldn’t be surprised if there are also nice fat donations to the church too

There's surely no need to be surprised, considering the number of reports of alleged payments to secure admission

Where I used to live, the local monsignor was quite blatant on what he meant about parents "supporting the church" when admission time came round. Mind you, he turned out to be a paedophile who skipped the country to avoid questioning, so admission criteria may well have become the least of the parents' worries ...

@puzzledandpissedoff and there’s another reason not to mix church and education. I wouldn’t trust priests near my children, they have a pretty poor track record.

I take your point, user148088 though churches aren't alone in having paedophiles and nobody's suggesting all religious leaders are a risk

That said, for me it's about what happens when they're caught - and given some churches' records on this, I fully understand that some parents may not want to take the chance