DH voted leave but can't articulate why

[DifferentViews]

Sorry if this has been done before, but i need to get this off my chest and perhaps get new insight or come to a better understanding, so i can discharge some of the anger i feel.
So, i voted remain and he voted leave. Up to a point, i am prepared to accept we have different political views and can move on.
Talking to him last night, i asked, knowing what he knows now, would he still have voted leave and he said yes.
Cue a long discussion as to why and really he has no real idea what he was voting for, or what he wanted. Its just so woolly...he wanted change, but can't articulate what that would be.
It was just a knee jerk reaction to not liking the current situation and wanting things to be 'different'.
Its just made me so angry that he would still vote that way again in spite of all the evidence that things wont be 'better' out the EU.
His argument is that we don't know whether it might be better, so that gamble is worth it, but i am really struggling to see his point of view.
Please, can someone give me some idea how i can come to terms with this, so i am not consumed with impotent anger at him? Thank you.
Ps this is not meant to be a goady post against those that voted leave, if you have a well thought out argument and honestly believe it, that's great.

“On our own we might be able to start improving things.“

Somebody linked to a lost of reasons to leave from the Telegraph (I think) earlier. A significant number of the reasons were about being able to ditch environmental protections.

How about voting to remain out of fear?

When Michael Heseltine is giving warnings like "the Brexiteers will demand significant changes to reflect their own views – views that will appal and frighten much of the electorate when they realise the enormity of what is being done" you know the right wing are scary.

A former cabinet minister from Thatchers government is warning about the right wing in his own party you know you should be scared.

I am from the left and I am quoting Heseltine. If the TUC can't convince you that the Brexiteers want a bonfire of regulations why not listen to a Tory?

The Brexiteers vision of post Brexit Britain is very scary indeed.

Fishing is 0.49% of the UK Economy
Video games are a significantly larger sector.

The UKs fishing industry was not "heard" in Brussels because the British MEP on the fisheries committee took the cash but never attended the meetings Nigel Farage
Blame where blame is due

Ive been watching lots of cooking shows based in Asia recently and have been to several SE Asian countries on holiday. One thing that strikes me over and over is their daily, habitual use of small plastic disposable bags to transport their takeaway food and to eat it from. Millions of Asians eat like this 3 to 5 times a day as they don't even have domestic kitchens in the small city tenament blocks they live in.

They must use literally millions and millions of these throwaway bags EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. When you think about it, it's horrifying. On my last holiday in Asia I was asked if I'd like a drink of water after a spa treatment and it arrived in a POLYSTYRENE disposable cup.

I find it hard to believe that banning me from having a decent vacuum cleaner that does the job properly instead of having a relatively underpowered model that I need to run for longer and use more often because it doesn't do a thorough job the first time, is going to make much difference while problems like that go unaddressed.

Yeah that's what counts, vacuum cleaners!

Workers rights might be systematically dismantled but someone's carpet will be clean.

I think you need to try your best to let go of your anger, or stop discussing it with. I think that many people who have changed their mind probably don't want to say, because some remainers seem to have a superiority complex and the smugness would be unbearable! Maybe think about how you'd feel if someone was asking you to articulate with robust arguments about every decision you've ever made or every belief you have. Some are just feelings. He has no reason to justify himself to you, and you shouldn't expect it of him.

I voted remain in a family of leave voters. We have different views. We were passionate about those views. I've never been angry with them, why would I be? I think they voted leave due to a more general dissatisfaction and wanting something to change, and the EU ref was an outlet for that, rather than it being solely about the EU. Some of my voting remain was rooted in what I believe about society and the problems borders bring, rather than our specific interactions with EU democracy. Because let's face it, the vast amount of people on both sides actually know very little about the EU, what it does and our relationship with it. We all based a decision on incomplete evidence and some ignorance.

Personally, I'm very angry at how the process has been handled. But my anger is directed solely at the people responsible for putting the national interest first and ensuring our future - our government and politicians. My mum isn't accountable for where we've found ourselves!

It's an interesting theory that Leave voters were motivated by altruism - the vision of a better UK - while Remain voters just wanted their nice comfortable lives.

Would I be right in assuming that all Leave voters are planning to move out of their homes to live in caravans, doing not well paid work bringing in the harvest in agricultural areas - replacing EU migrant workers. When such work is unavailable I imagine they'll also be queuing up to taker care of frail elderly people in care homes, as many of the existing carers are from EU countries? Because this would demonstrate that they weren't movtivated by wanting to help in areas where there is genuine need. (Assuming of course, that farms will survive without EU subsidies and that the economy will be able to underpin the existing model of social care - which is already under strain.)

I think it would be very difficult to respect somebody's opinion and vote if as a direct result of that vote you lose your job or suffer other real and painful consequences.

I think not being able to articulate why is probably better than many of the reasons I have heard. Which include

BIL - To stop the Turkish twats taking over our country and make Britain great again
SIL - We have too many immigrants and need rid
Workmate 1 - We need a chance to stand on our own too feet (not too bad..until) away from all those damn foreigners ruling us.
DM - I think I will be personally better off from leaving, so thats my vote. I kind of get that one, voting for your own interests as most do that, but she doesn't seem to be able to tell me HOW she will be better off, especially given she takes at least 4holidays in Europe a year and plans on retiring to Lanzarote!
Workmate 2 - We need to close our borders to stop all these immigrants from Syria. When I pointed out that those fromSyria are refugees, not immigrants, he said they werre both the same thing, coming for our vast benefits
Workmate 3 - The NHS needs the funds that are going there after we leave. Again, a good reason in theory but it was lies.

Those are just from the top of my head.

Some may well have good reasons, but they seem extremely relucatant to tell anyone these reasons!

Mumsnet is a very weird place in which it is vital that partners should submit to dictated procedures around towel cleansing and chicken-washing. On the other hand mild concern or curiosity about a partner's political views is seen as controlling and abusive.

I find it hard to believe that banning me from having a decent vacuum cleaner that does the job properly

I bought a new vacuum cleaner last year. Honestly, it is the best I have ever had. Much better than any previous model ever, from 90's era Goblins, Hoovers, the famous Henry up to and including modern Dysons. Yet it complies with current EU legislation.

Buy a Shark that's marketed as suitable for pet hair. It's amazing.

Potential partners who trampled over my chicken handling boundaries got short shrift, lol.

I've got a Shark, I agree, it's brilliant.

Of course, even after we leave the EU, our vacuum cleaners will STILL comply with EU standards, because manufacturers will either be based in EU, or want to sell their products to the rest of the EU market. The only UK-based vacuum cleaner manufacturer I can think of is Dyson, and they're moving to Singapore.

Unless we're going to be importing our white goods from the US, maybe?

Hilarious post on remainers voting for self interest whilst leavers were altruists, voting on feelings.

No, the leave vote wasn't whipped up with nationalist rhetoric and emotional promises at all by those people who seek to push their ultra right wing neo liberal agenda, and it wasn't aimed at those who will be made worst off by this.

I’ve never seen voting to tank the economy described as altruistic before, but okay then.

Interesting the poster who formed some views on the EU visiting SE Asia.

I also found visiting SE Asia influential, but in my case it was “Whoah, there are these huge, young cities I have never even heard of the size of Birmingham or bigger, full of people who are educated, with technical skills and hungry to build good lives. People in the West who think the way things were over the Twentieth century with us living the good life is somehow the natural order are going to get a rude shock!”

So for me it was a driver for Remain, because Leave is based on an idea of Britain’s relevance in the world that just isn’t going to be true any more.

The South East Asia poster reminds me of a teen saying: "Well everyone else is doing it."

Not so much the leave voters but the leave campaigners are the worrying ones. These are the people who pushed to get the UK out of Europe for self-serving, worrying reasons - such as being able to continue dodging tax, getting rid of all those tiresome EU regulations about treating your employees like human beings (no more health and safety, no more minimum wage, no more 'red tape if it interferes with profit)... and, in the case of the ones still screaming for leaving on ANY terms, being in a position to profit hugely from the chaos a no-deal exit will cause. If they're not quite that calculated, then they tend to be the ones who live in an absolute bubble that allows them to keep their fantasies of the Glorious British Empire, ie the days when everyone not only obeyed rich white men but loved them, intact.)

It's pretty hard to think of a purely self serving reason to have voted Leave actually

really?

I voted remain partly to retain employment rights.

Many leavers voted leave partly to cut foreigners out of the job market.

Both are self-serving, I'd say.

Can I ask leavers a question? It's not about why you voted the way you did. It's about what you make of claims that the vote was so badly framed and tainted by corruption that it should not be allowed to stand. Does that give you pause for thought, or do you not believe it, or do you think it doesn't matter, or any other options I can't think of right now? For the sake of openness I'm a rabid remainer whose life is being negatively impacted by brexit, but I'm trying to frame the question as non-judgementally as I can.

@TaMereAPoilDevantPrisu
The referendum question was not badly phrased. It was Stay or Leave. Yes or No. Everything was done to persuade and scare us to vote Stay, and we still voted Leave/No.

Your life is not being negatively affected by Brexit. In truth, I doubt that you can't name one area in which being in or out of the EU will make the slightest difference

If it did, why isn't every country in every other continent desperate to get into the EU? Why aren't they adversely affected by not being in the EU?

I would vote yes to become the 51st state of the US. I would never vote yes to remain in the EU.

Thanks for answering Gth. When I say "badly framed" I was thinking above all about arguments about who was allowed to vote and the fact that it was a simple majority vote for such a complex and divisive issue. I'm also thinking about the allegations of corruption (Russian financing etc). Does that worry you or do you think such claims hold no water?

Brexit is costing me money and stress and will make my life more complicated in the short, medium, and long term. I'd call that a negative impact. I could name plenty of areas where it has an impact but I want to focus on my question so I won't go into them now.

In truth, I doubt that you can't name one area in which being in or out of the EU will make the slightest difference
My son will not be able to do Erasmus but my daughter has been
that is a pretty massive reduction in opportunities for one of my children
My daughter's career prospects will be affected by the ending of UK participation in science projects.
My son's career prospects will be affected by the reduction in jobs in London Finance.
Brexit has direct impacts on lots of lives

The sector I work in receives substantial funding from the EU. Brexit is affecting my job prospects and those of my colleagues. Many have actually left, which affects the quality of the collaborative work that can be done.

And if it's true that being in or out of the EU won't make the slightest difference to our day to day lives, you do have to wonder why we've spent the last three years arguing about it, wasting parliamentary time and billions of pounds that would have been spent on solving the problems which people claim are mainly the fault of the EU.