DH voted leave but can't articulate why

[DifferentViews]

Sorry if this has been done before, but i need to get this off my chest and perhaps get new insight or come to a better understanding, so i can discharge some of the anger i feel.
So, i voted remain and he voted leave. Up to a point, i am prepared to accept we have different political views and can move on.
Talking to him last night, i asked, knowing what he knows now, would he still have voted leave and he said yes.
Cue a long discussion as to why and really he has no real idea what he was voting for, or what he wanted. Its just so woolly...he wanted change, but can't articulate what that would be.
It was just a knee jerk reaction to not liking the current situation and wanting things to be 'different'.
Its just made me so angry that he would still vote that way again in spite of all the evidence that things wont be 'better' out the EU.
His argument is that we don't know whether it might be better, so that gamble is worth it, but i am really struggling to see his point of view.
Please, can someone give me some idea how i can come to terms with this, so i am not consumed with impotent anger at him? Thank you.
Ps this is not meant to be a goady post against those that voted leave, if you have a well thought out argument and honestly believe it, that's great.

mummmy2017
If the UK stays in the EU, I am happy with that deal. Full stop.

Whatever picture the final deal with the EU looks like will upset lots of leave supporters.
And there will be a deal eventually

I know the moment has passed but in relation to EU Commissioners being appointed.

In lots and lots of countries the equivalent of cabinet ministers are appointed. In the USA the Secretaries of State are appointed. Does that mean the US is not a democracy?

Democracy does not mean you vote for every institution and everybody in those institutions.

boney

Snipe or snide, it doesn't change my point is that at least once you attributed bad intent where there was none then, so perhaps you are feeling more attacked than you actually are.

That is a better thought than feeling constantly attacked, surely?

As Boneyback has just said You have an opinion and I have an opinion. That is pretty much all there is to it.
Which I think could be the summary of my conversation with dh.
I think a lot of my frustration comes from my belief that my opinion is based on research and facts and my Dh's opinion is based on a feeling, which I could normally be fine with, after all, we're all allowed an opinion. I suppose it's just that this decision is going to affect the country for decades and at the moment, there doesn't seem to be any positives on offer that can soften the blow, or if there are, they certainly don't outweigh the negatives.

@GoldenPhoenix

I totally get it, I am very angry too with my parents who both smugly voted to leave but cannot give me a single good reason how it is going to make life better. They seemingly just wanted to stick the fingers up at the rest of the EU. Did have a small chuckle the other day when my dad started moaning his shares has gone down, total head in the sand!

Wow, the contempt you have for your parents is astonishing!

What a horrible spiteful post.

And I suppose your father's shares NEVER went down before the Brexit referendum.

And this is the kind of mentality that voted to remain. PMSL!

What a horrible spiteful post

Or and expression of despair and anger. A cry of frustration at our future prosperity being thrown away.

We have to have the utmost care and concern for the feelings of leavers - quite rightly - but leavers can be unpleasantly judgmental.

When leavers act, speak or vote in frustration is it is entirely understandable but when Remainers do it it is spiteful?

@americandream do piss off. I have contempt for their decision not them.

I think it is useful for people to experience the consequences of action.

So if older UK leave voters are resident in an EU country and realise that their pensions will be frozen and that their health care costs will no longer be paid and that their right to stay in that country is no longer secure, then there is a kind of justice about that...

Essentially it's what they chose.

It is a bit odd the way that Remainers all treat every Leave voter as if they were personally responsible for the result of the vote across the whole country.

Blibbyblobby

Snipe or snide, it doesn't change my point is that at least once you attributed bad intent where there was none then, so perhaps you are feeling more attacked than you actually are.

I don'f t feel attacked at all, I am so past that, I am actually finding it amusing that posters are trying to wind other people up.
In Boris's case it is a shame as they have posted thoughtful; and sensible posts just spoilt by the "I am bored, who can I annoy attitude"

That is a better thought than feeling constantly attacked, surely?

Again your opinion. Its interesting the verbal gymnastics some are performing to stay just on the right side of a deleted post.

Every leave voter is responsible for the outcome. That's how voting works.

finding it amusing that posters are trying to wind other people up

I find it quite sad actually.

I like a debate and a row as much as the next poster but I do think we need to make an effort to keep a lid on the hyperbole on Brexit threads. The divisions are so deep and so nasty we need to pull back a bit. Or a lot.

So if older UK leave voters are resident in an EU country and realise that their pensions will be frozen and that their health care costs will no longer be paid and that their right to stay in that country is no longer secure, then there is a kind of justice about that...

My parents have lived in France for over 20 years and so could not vote in the referendum. They would have voted remain if they could but they had no vote. They are suffering all these consequences but had no say in the matter whatsoever.

I think a lot of my frustration comes from my belief that my opinion is based on research and facts and my Dh's opinion is based on a feeling,

There are almost no facts, this is politics. There are a lot of trite sound bites. There are a lot of predictions and forecasts. There are facts about how the EU is constituted, but profound disagreements over the intpretation of that. As demonstrated on this thread, any expression of opinion about a democratic deficit in relation to the EU is dismissed with a range of answers from whataboutery about the House Of Lords to talk of UK civil servants. But those facts are open to interpretation and opinion - what if we have too little democracy everywhere? We only had a referendum on the EU

I suppose it's just that this decision is going to affect the country for decades and at the moment, there doesn't seem to be any positives on offer that can soften the blow, or if there are, they certainly don't outweigh the negatives

I feel that way every time we get another Tory government- but I don’t go around telling all Tory voters they are scum with no right to vote.

Plurabelle and others. You're being goady. I voted Remain but it is sickening here with the constant demands for ratification and reasoning for a voting decision.

If you (general, not aimed at you specifically) are truly interested in what was behind Leave voters voting (and not satisfied with the responses you're getting) then why not go to your MEP and ask them to explain the Referendum to you, in the detail that you seem to want?

It's done. I've signed the petition, many people have. We can hope for a last minute revocation (and I do) but what you and others are doing is constantly hectoring and hounding. You're being disingenuous to say otherwise because the minute that somebody does post their reasons for voting Leave, they're leapt on, like so many fleas that have just spotted a dog. That really is pathetic.

Get your answers from government; that is IF you're actually genuine about wanting to know the details.

I don't think I am being goady.

While not all posters will have very detailed reasons for why they cast their vote one way or the other, some will and it is interesting to hear them.

I know why I made my choice but beforehand I went to see a presentation by a prominent politician - who visited my home city - about the case for voting the other way. I hoped for enlightenment. But I thought their arguments were shallow and simplistic. Not good enough for a GCSE essay. I wondered if they actually believed what they said or just wanted power.

I think what is tragic is that what started as an internal power struggle within a political party is - through a former PM's irresponsibility and a current PM's intransigence, plus a divided Opposition - is threatening to wreck the country.

Talking of hyperbole, according to FullFact, there were not one million plus people on the march.
Realistic estimates vary from 312 - 400,000. That's from experts in crowd estimation.

(and before anyone comments about the odious Farage and his measly march - don't bother!)

I just thought I'd mention it as we all know how important it is to listen to experts.

Badlydrawn
I feel that way every time we get another Tory government- but I don’t go around telling all Tory voters they are scum with no right to vote.
Well, good, and so far, no one on this thread has said the same about the referendum vote.

I don't even understand this comment from badlydrawn
There are almost no facts, this is politics
There are surely lots and lots of facts about how the UK performs within the EU. We've been doing it for years.

i don’t go around telling all Tory voters they are scum with no right to vote

You may not

Others do

I dont go around saying anything mean about people who voted leave, and nor do most other remain voters

SOME do, and SOME people who voted leave say mean things about people who voted remain

SOME people are just mean, and stupid, amd hypocritical

The experts in relation to the amount of people on the march are the police and they won't comment anymore.

The amount of people became a political football and an exercise in propaganda so the police no longer comment.

Plurabelle "Not good enough for a GCSE essay"

I teach GCSEs and you are correct. The level of argument and the way the opinions are regarded as facts and references are thrown around with no nuance, would merit some politicians a 2 or on a good day a 3.

@badlydrawnperson you say "any expression of opinion about a democratic deficit in relation to the EU is dismissed"

Not by me they haven't. A comment on democratic deficit would be nuanced and valuable, I would be interested to discuss the points raised. The nature of the deficit is an opinion.

A comment saying the EU is 'undemocratic' is simply untrue. The EU has a range of democratic structures in keeping with constitutional democracy. This is a fact.

Do people think increased direct democracy would have increased the remain vote? I am interested, as it is quite an easy fix if the anti EU vote really is gaining significant ground across Europe. Somehow it doesn't ring true for me that it would make all the difference though. I think people would still see the majority of commissioners and meps as foreign.

I think the bit of the leave argument that makes me most upset is the "it's all just one opinion Vs another". I genuinely do not think my opinion is worth more than someone else's opinion. But how you reach those opinions has to be based on objective truth and trust in expert forecasts and opinions. If evidence based decision making is over then the enlightenment values are dead.

I don't think we need direct democracy as it often leads to poor decision making I would use the American legal system as an example. District Attorneys too focused on vengeance not justice for electoral reasons. However, direct democracy is working very well in the RoI.

I do think FPTP is one of the main reasons people feel disenfranchised and listening to leave voters many express frustration with not having their voice heard as a reason for voting leave.

Some form of voting reform is one of the few ways we could demonstrate we do care about what all people think and those views should be expressed in Parliament in a variety of ways even if I personally find some of those views distasteful.