DH voted leave but can't articulate why

[DifferentViews]

Sorry if this has been done before, but i need to get this off my chest and perhaps get new insight or come to a better understanding, so i can discharge some of the anger i feel.
So, i voted remain and he voted leave. Up to a point, i am prepared to accept we have different political views and can move on.
Talking to him last night, i asked, knowing what he knows now, would he still have voted leave and he said yes.
Cue a long discussion as to why and really he has no real idea what he was voting for, or what he wanted. Its just so woolly...he wanted change, but can't articulate what that would be.
It was just a knee jerk reaction to not liking the current situation and wanting things to be 'different'.
Its just made me so angry that he would still vote that way again in spite of all the evidence that things wont be 'better' out the EU.
His argument is that we don't know whether it might be better, so that gamble is worth it, but i am really struggling to see his point of view.
Please, can someone give me some idea how i can come to terms with this, so i am not consumed with impotent anger at him? Thank you.
Ps this is not meant to be a goady post against those that voted leave, if you have a well thought out argument and honestly believe it, that's great.

Borisbogtrotter - on this, and a number of other posts I have given the reasons why I voted leave and the reason that I still want to leave.

I have listened and read the counter arguments to this. I have looked at the sources, read the articles linked to etc etc.

I still want to leave. This is my carefully considered view when weighing up the facts.

I am not abusive to remainers. you have a perfect right to your view and I defend your right to express it (in a reasonable manner) to go on marches, to sign petitions etc.

but you have not persuaded me to change my mind.

another vote wont change my mind. nor will a petition nor will a thousand and one threads on mumsnet.

I have no idea where all this going tbh. staying, leaving, no deal, deal who the hell knows at the moment.

what I do know, and what I have seen again today on the various local facebook groups and others I belong to is a rise of right wing rhetoric amongst some leavers and some who voted remain but respect the referendum result.

I am done with talking about Brexit and am waiting now for the politicians to do what they promised when they triggered article 50 and in all but one parties manifestos - to respect the original Peoples Vote and come out of Europe.

mummymeister
I am done with talking about Brexit
Good luck with that one.
If it happens it will be on the front pages for another ten years

Mummy, your posts repeatedly show that you voted out of the EU for change, but on issues not related to the EU and that will not change because of leaving the EU.

Your inability to change your mind, is up to you.

A rise in right wing rhetoric among leavers happened a long time ago

All the other commissioners are appointed by the democratically elected governments of the member states.

They are 'proposed' by heads of government but selection lies with the Commission president Juncker. So we vote for Tony Blair as our PM he proposes his choice of Commissioner to represent the UK. As long as the Commission president agrees with the choice - the job is theirs. Dame Catherine Ashton as commissioner for Trade being one such example.

Would it not be far more democratic to allow the people of the member states to vote for the Commissioner to represent them or at least allow the European Parliament to vote for all 28 commissioners?

The European Parliament includes MEPs from right across the political spectrum but they have no legislative powers. The Commission on the other hand does not reflect that same scope of political views. What is wrong with Commissioners being elected rather than appointed and in doing so, any criticism of it being undemocratic would be removed at a stroke.

The European Parliament might as well not exist for all the use it is. And at the next European elections I guarantee it will be full of Eurosceptics who will make UKIP look like closet federalists. Italy's The League and 5-Star, with the League likely to become the 2nd largest party overall. Marine Le Pen's French Nationals, Hungarys Fidesz, Germany's AFD and more.

Erm. Nah.

I'm far from fluent, but I can get by in French and German, and in my reading of the online German and French press, I am not getting the impression that they're inspired by our example.

My Italian is only GCSE I have two brothers and a goldfish so maybe you're right there, though.

In my opinion, what we have done is bring the rest of Europe together. The detailed discussion of exactly what Britain has to negotiate in order to leave fully has dissuaded people who were previously Eurosceptics. I think it's agreed by outsiders that our government has been bringing unseen depths of incompetence to the task of buggering it all up, but the (wo)man in the French street has a whole new level of appreciation for the work that is involved in leaving the EU efficiently.

They don't want to do it! And they are sick of the UK messing them about.

Ever had a really flakey mate who you'd known for years and years? You went way back with her so you put up with her never turning up on time for social events, even when she'd inconvenienced everyone by insisting on a meet-up location and restaurant to suit her? You know, the one you 'lost touch with' after one day that was the last flipping straw?

That's the UK right now. They don't want to be us.

I think your post is reasonable mummy. You haven't changed your mind but you respect that doesn't mean people who disagree with you have to shut up and go away.

"They are 'proposed' by heads of government but selection lies with the Commission president Juncker. "

Juncker wouldn't be able to reject a commissioner neither would the commission, once proposed they are in.

Would it not be far more democratic to allow the people of the member states to vote for the Commissioner to represent them or at least allow the European Parliament to vote for all 28 commissioners?

Essentially they're like our cabinet members, who we don't expect to vote on. I suspect that would be a bit of a recipe for chaos.

I believe that the EU is bureaucratic and often wasteful. MEP salaries are very high. With input from 28 countries, decision making can be slow. The rise of nationalist governments and their input concerns me. The common market is protectionist. The balance of power within the EU is not equal, and some countries benefit more than others.

I also believe that its existence supports peace in Europe, improves living standards, animal welfare standards and environmental standards through regulation, and think that freedom of movement and a common market are beneficial to the UK and other EU member states. EU funding is much better targeted at areas that will benefit from it than much internal funding is (e.g. much higher levels of funding to the SW, Wales, Midlands from the EU vs UK which is generally weighted towards London). We are net 'winners' on scientific and medical research funding as it's an area in which the UK excels.

I voted Remain. Others who believe the same as me might have voted Leave.

So, I've given reasons for voting in each direction. But I also don't really think that most people were swayed by reason (including me). The vote was generally instinctive and reflects a person's identity and emotional state and how they view their national and international identity. I am someone who supports open borders and the creation of global communities. Citizenship is, for most people, an accident of birth, and so I don't understand nationalism. If someone wants to come and live in the UK I support it completely because it means they think the UK is a good place to live. I support high taxes and a welfare state. I want different people and countries to work together to improve life for everyone, no matter who they are, where they were born or where they choose to live.

I have a friend who voted Leave. He has, through circumstance, had to rely on himself for everything from childhood. He is a lovely man who helps others without question, but who does not believe that others would ever do the same for him. His self-sufficiency reflects his belief that the UK can 'go it alone'. I don't believe he's xenophobic or racist or stupid. It's just that there is nothing that will change his mind because it's so much part of his identity as an isolationist.

(Also, you can be xenophobic, racist and stupid and vote in either direction. You don't have to be white or born British to have voted Leave; I know multiple immigrants who voted that way because they believed it might mean more spaces would be opened up for others from non-EU countries to immigrate, for example, or reduce the costs for non-EU immigrants to live or work here.)

OP, I hope that you and your DH can come to an understanding. His vote sounds instinctive - is he someone who is very self sufficient like my friend, someone who is dissatisfied with the status quo, someone who feels disenfranchised or someone who has a strong nationalist identity? Maybe this will give you the opportunity to connect more deeply with other issues or personality traits that you were both unaware before this.

Good luck to you both through this all.

I am not going to speculate on what the eu may or may not do in their next elections. the roadmaps on what they plan to do are freely available on their website and if you are so inclined to read them then you will see what their future plans are. You can do this by subject of interest or on a daily/weekly basis.

will the far right get voted in? who know. less likely I would have thought because so many eu citizens will have seen our omnishambles and it might turn a few of them away.

I wouldn't ever want anyone to shut up and go away. I do want the millions that didn't vote to start engaging. that would be a positive if it happened.

I didn't vote to come out because I wanted change Boris and you know that because you have read/commented on many of my posts. that is far too simplistic a representation. I voted out because I don't want to enact the changes that the EU is proposing in its road maps. So actually I am against proposed EU changes.

and no, I am not going to list them or give 3 reasons. or anything else. if you are minded to find out what these are, go look at the roadmaps and make up your own minds.

But my point is why are they appointed and not elected?

What's the issue? Then the 'undemocratic' accusation would be a non starter.

And I'm sorry Jamie but you're talking bollocks. In your opinion 'we've brought the rest of Europe together'. Tell that to the Dutch who have just voted in droves for the eurosceptic FvD. Tell that to all the other EU countries where euroscepticism is on the rise. Even the EU themselves are bracing themselves for a surge of populist and nationalist parties in the next elections where they are predicting large gains. I'm not putting forward my own personal opinion here. This is what the EU themselves are predicting.

Come back and tell me that 'we've brought the rest of Europe together' after those elections take place and see where we are then.

Here's an article from the EU backed Euronews which sets out exactly what the concerns are ...

www.euronews.com/2019/03/22/as-worries-about-populism-in-europe-rise-investors-bet-on-stock-market-volatility

I think voting with the far right in the EU referendum, and then worrying about the far right in Europe shows a massive amount of cognitive dissonance.

Mummy you have posted about the changes you think you might get, none of them are to do with the EU. Your point about EU road maps? Well being in the EU we can influence them, nothing is ever forced on us.

You could have more of a role for direct democracy in the EU it is true. I think this osore opposed by the directly elected member state Governments than it is by the institutions of the EU.

I think Acis's post is very good. I have been a bit frustrated by the remain campaign's failure to speak from the heart because I agree that the economic disaster is only really heaping misery on more misery for me really, as it's the peace and unity and cooperation that I value above all. But when a remainer talks about the actual grieving process they have been going through as a result of an attack on their core values and identity, they are often told they are being ridiculous. Even on threads that were seeking support,rather than trying to change anyone's mind. And politicians are doing the same thing with their will of the people rhetoric.

"But my point is why are they appointed and not elected?"

The problem is that the same point can be said of a whole host of institutions. The idea of commissioners is that they don't have to be politicians, the best people for the job can be appointed. We don't elect civil servants or judges, nor do we elect directly cabinet ministers or ambassadors.

"Tell that to the Dutch who have just voted in droves for the eurosceptic FvD. "

Yet even more voted for pro EU parties?

There may be a rise in populist votes, but that's in line with all countries in the world at the moment, you can't say the EU is causing populist elections in the US or Brazil can you?

Populism is popular cause it tells people what they want to hear, they tend to be rather ineffective in government, look at Trump.

I'm afraid I don't speak Dutch, so I don't know about their political situation in detail

However, it seems to be a bit more nuanced that the Daily Express explained it.

dutchreview.com/news/politics/5-things-to-know-about-the-dutch-election-results-of-2019/

Jesus the A word is banded about so easily on MN.

I think what I would struggle with if this was my DH is that he had not based his opinion on facts. I would struggle to have respect for someone that did that and it would make me feel as if they weren't very bright. It's ok to decide things in feelings sometimes but to form political opinions based on no facts is pretty stupid imho.

Thank you mumofamenagarie, that is a really thoughtful post and has given me much to think about.
As you and others have pointed out, a lot of people voted with their feelings, without perhaps doing any/much research, and tbh, even I had research bias, so spent most of my time finding articles to back up my heartfelt view.
You're right in that my DH is very independent and has a strong national identity, so I can understand more where he is coming from. It helps, thank you

There may be a rise in populist votes, but that's in line with all countries in the world at the moment, you can't say the EU is causing populist elections in the US or Brazil can you?

But I'm not concerned with the US or Brazil. That is for the people of those countries to be concerned about. I am concerned with what is happening in Europe. Is it so wrong to have those concerns?

I have not predicted an increase in the election of Eurosceptic MEPs at the next European elections. It is not my personal opinion. It is not my personal opinion the the Dutch have just voted for the FvD in unprecedented numbers. No matter how you spin it that is a fact. There may be more votes for pro-EU parties (not difficult when you've got 12 different parties in the Dutch Parliament), but it is the rise of the FvD that is the concern - a result which has been described as 'stunning' so much so , the FvD themselves barely have enough candidates to fill the seats they won. As an individual party they have more seats than any other individual party and that is the issue.

"A proponent of Dutch-first cultural, social and economic policies, (FvD leader) Baudet has called for less immigration, improved relations with Russia, and for the Netherlands to leave the EU .... "I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing," he told de Volkskrant last month."

So says the leader of the largest party in the Dutch parliament. Then look back to the end of last year and the elections in Sweden where the anti EU Swedish Democrats commanded 18% of the vote. Yes that still means four fifths of the electorate voted for other parties, but it's still a concern in one of the most liberal countries in Europe.

I just don't see the point in pretending that the EU institution is beyond criticism and reproach, and that all the citizens of Europe are in love with it apart from a few million nasty Brits, because it's simply not the case.

Instead of glossing over these issues, why not take them seriously? Why not elect commissioners if it stops the accusations of the EU being undemocratic as many believe it to be? Instead of glossing over the rise of euroscepticism in Europe itself (I'm not concerned with South America or anywhere else) why not start to take it seriously?

Anyway that's me done. I've said my bit and if no-one else thinks any of this is of concern then that's fine.

FrugalFanny

You seem to have quoted two paragraphs from politico.eu on the subject of Baudet and unaccountably left one line out in the direct middle.

Here's the quote in full:

A proponent of Dutch-first cultural, social and economic policies, Baudet has called for less immigration, improved relations with Russia, and for the Netherlands to leave the EU — although he has also said he will see how Brexit plays out first.
“I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing,” he told de Volkskrant last month.

Not sure why you snipped that bit off, but I'm sure it was by accident.

Source here for anyone who wants to read the full thing: www.politico.eu/article/thierry-baudet-forum-for-democracy-netherlands-5-things-to-know-about-dutch-far-rights-new-figurehead/

Not unaccountably and of course it wasn't 'by accident' but it isn't part of the direct quote. As Brexit hasn't happened yet I don't see how it is relevant to "I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing"

All political leaders are watching to see how it plays out - that goes without saying doesn't it? He couldn't take The Netherlands out now even if he wanted to so totally irrelevant in the context of the platform he was voted in on - ideologically opposed to the EU, opposed to the Euro, opposed to the whole thing? That is my concern, not when and how he might attempt to implement his views. It is the fact that he was voted in on those views.

This is getting ridiculous. I'm now accused of trying to skew news reports when anyone can go and read them for themselves as you have done.

For goodness sake Boris stop being so deliberately argumentative.

I didn't vote with the far right in an EU referendum. Neither did a lot of people.

Look at Labour areas that voted for Brexit.

You have no idea what I voted in a GE - none whatsoever.

Oh, don't be disingenuous.

I had to copy and paste that quote to find the article. Do you know why I did so and looked for the article? Because you hadn't given a link. I am experienced enough and cynical enough to know that lack of citation either indicates carelessness or someone being secretive. I'm guilty of the first frequently.

Imagine my surprise when there was something removed.

Cutting that line is far more damning that leaving it in, so bad choice there.

Funny thing here. I don't actually think I'm necessarily brighter than Leave voters. I have no evidence to prove I'm brighter than anyone else, so I have no business putting myself on a pedestal. Therefore I don't.

But there's one thing I can say about myself- I always debate and discuss in good faith, and I despise dishonesty. I fact-check my own claims, because although I'm entitled to my own opinions, I'm not entitled to my own facts. Same goes for everyone else.

You're entitled to want to Leave. You're entitled to believe that electing Commissioners directly would be better than electing a government which handles the responsibility. I don't personally see that I or the average person on the street is particularly equipped to select between the candidates, so no. The introduction of elections for local police commissioners was ridiculous enough. But you're entitled to the viewpoint.

Cloak-and-dagger antics with selective quoting can be left at the door, though.

I totally get it, I am very angry too with my parents who both smugly voted to leave but cannot give me a single good reason how it is going to make life better. They seemingly just wanted to stick the fingers up at the rest of the EU. Did have a small chuckle the other day when my dad started moaning his shares has gone down, total head in the sand!

Those who deem the EU undemocratic seem quite happy with Bishops and hereditary peers in the UK legislature

and those ranting about unelected bureaucrats seem to forget that the UK has 440,000 of them, and the chief negotiator, Olly Robbins was appointed by other civil servants, not even elected members