DH voted leave but can't articulate why

[DifferentViews]

Sorry if this has been done before, but i need to get this off my chest and perhaps get new insight or come to a better understanding, so i can discharge some of the anger i feel.
So, i voted remain and he voted leave. Up to a point, i am prepared to accept we have different political views and can move on.
Talking to him last night, i asked, knowing what he knows now, would he still have voted leave and he said yes.
Cue a long discussion as to why and really he has no real idea what he was voting for, or what he wanted. Its just so woolly...he wanted change, but can't articulate what that would be.
It was just a knee jerk reaction to not liking the current situation and wanting things to be 'different'.
Its just made me so angry that he would still vote that way again in spite of all the evidence that things wont be 'better' out the EU.
His argument is that we don't know whether it might be better, so that gamble is worth it, but i am really struggling to see his point of view.
Please, can someone give me some idea how i can come to terms with this, so i am not consumed with impotent anger at him? Thank you.
Ps this is not meant to be a goady post against those that voted leave, if you have a well thought out argument and honestly believe it, that's great.

Well just after the referendum there was a spate of attacks against polish people, I seem to remember their ambassador got involved?

They could have been from upset remainers but that wasn't the take at the time.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

"Yes we vote in MEPs however, as we all know (don't we?) the EU Parliament has absolutely no power to propose, make or repeal any laws. It is limited to amending laws that have been proposed by the EU Commission - non elected individuals!"

That's not really true though, is it?

The EU Commission formally proposes laws, often at the request of member nations. To bring an analogy with the UK, they do the work that our civil servants do in turning an idea into a properly defined, complete proposal.

Those proposals can be voted into law by the European Parliament, which is elected.

fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/

Looks like they're out of bed now!

@Windowsareforcheaters

People can vote how they want. No one is saying they can't so why are people insisting on pointing this out?

The OP is dismayed that on such a crucial decision that will have serious implications for decades her DH can not articulate a decent argument.

Debate is normal and healthy, it is vital for democracy. Simply coming to a decision with no arguments to back up your decision and leaving it there is no nurturing democracy.

Opposition is vital for democracy. Taking a supine the decision is made let's just lie back and wait attitude is very, very dangerous.

Passivity kills democracy.

Well done! One of the most disingenuous posts I have seen on this thread.

You bang on about 'democracy' blah blah blah, but like many remainers, you only want democracy when it suits you.

It's not very democratic to demand the will of 17.2 MILLION people is ignored is it hmmmm?

I suppose you think democracy can fuck off in this case eh?

Typical attitude of many remainers.

Thank God the online petition and the silly march through London will do NOTHING to change the outcome.

Shame.

And you say 'debate is normal and healthy.' Very true. Except most remainers don't want a 'debate' about Brexit; they just want to shut down anyone who doesn't think like they do, and call all leavers thick, racist, low-class, uneducated bigots, who did not know what they were voting for.'

And the idea that all remainers DID know, is laughable to the extreme. I know a number of remainers who did not even know what the EU was when they voted remain, let alone what leaving it would mean! They just went with what their mates were going with.

@FriarTuck

Remainers on Mumsnet only seem to be happy to be rude about Leavers. And there's no discussion - it's 'I'm right, you're racist / thick / uninformed.....'

THIS. ^ In spades.

@FuriousCheekyFucker

Maybe Leave voters are tired and bored of justifying their choice to a sect of people who dismiss their viewpoints, refuse to accept their reasons, and minimise their concerns, whilst pouring vitriolic hate speech on them by calling them bigoted uneducated racists?

Also THIS. ^ Well said.

@SheWoreBlueVelvet so can a response not be bullying?

When lots and lots of people respond with "we won, you lost, get over it" and these people are on the winning side - they have the power, they did in fact win - how is that not bullying?

The side with the power - the winners - are rubbing the noses of the losers in their defeat, how is that not bullying?

Although this ^ is very likely. It is also very likely that like so many remainers they don't actually listen to what is being said.

Exactly Boney which is why I told previous poster her confirmation bias must be getting the better of her. You can tell people your well reasoned arguments until you are blue in the face and they'll just keep parroting on a loop 'I haven't heard any coherent arguments I haven't heard any coherent arguments I haven't heard any coherent arguments.'

Again..” we won, you lost” is aresponseto the constant haranguing of Remainers

No, it's not. Look at almost any news forum that contains coverage of the march, the petition, discussion of another referendum etc. Out come all the 'deport the traitors' comments and "Loser, snowflakes, Remoaners" (Remoantards is a particularly lovely example). So, no, you're wrong. Quite often it's just in response to remainers exercising their democratic right. And if you looked further than MN you'd have your eyes opened.

I think Bill Clinton had it. Regardless of whether people voted to leave or remain, they voted for what - regardless of the evidence - made economic sense to them.

People believed they were voting to improve their personal economic situation, or prevent it from worsening. I think “Immigration” was actually fear of catching poor.

It’s easy to look at economic analysis and wonder how on earth people were persuaded to vote leave, if you don’t walk in their shoes.

OP, I think you are angry with the wrong person.

@Ellenborough

The referendum is over. I got the outcome I desired

What was that, if you don't mind me asking? I mean obviously you wanted to Leave to win and you got that, but I'm guessing you want an actual outcome from that Leave vote (otherwise we could just stay in now )

yes, the fact that people have totally and permanently fucked up our country and our children's future is hilarious isn't it.

Oh stop the hysteria. Americandream was referring to the poster’s ridiculous reaction in putting her wedding photos in a draw as they contain the face of a leave voter.

@americandream I want democracy all the time.

I want people to be educated about democracy. I want debate and discussion. I want a change to the electoral system so more people feel engaged by democracy.

I think people demonstrating is something to be celebrated and something to be proud of. I think petitions and political engagement or any kind of citizenship action is to be encouraged.

To dismiss 1 million people marching peacefully as "silly" shows a lack of respect for the people of this country.

The result of the referendum has absolutely not been ignored that is what the last few years has been about and now we have several solutions a bit more democracy may well be needed to decide what next - via Parliament or a second referendum.

Those proposals can be voted into law by the European Parliament, which is elected But cannot be refused, just amended. Even your source goes on to say The role it plays and its influence is controversial I'm not claiming the unelected officials run the EU, that's a daft claim only the most rabid Leaver thnks, or remainer claims a Leaver thinks!

It really isn't the same as our civil service (unless you are a fan of Yes Prime/Minister). Again as your source says, it isn't comparable to WhiteHall or Westminster.

If the EU is undemocratic because you perceive some flaws in the system then the U.K. is undemocratic as well - House of Lords anyone? And yes, I do dislike it, that is my opinion of it. I dislike much of the way UK politics is run too... and I vote accordingly! But to directly compare them is apples and oranges, see above!

That's the point. My opinion is different from yours, so my vote is also going to be different!

@americandream

And you say 'debate is normal and healthy.' Very true. Except most remainers don't want a 'debate' about Brexit; they just want to shut down anyone who doesn't think like they do, and call all leavers thick, racist, low-class, uneducated bigots, who did not know what they were voting for.'

And yet your very long post is just yet another barrage of "remainers this, remainers that"

So please, genuinely and honesty, assuming you were you eligible to vote in the UK Referendum and voted Leave, why did you? I promise not to dismiss anything that isn't factually incorrect or logically flawed.

Drawer even. Fucking spellcheck. 😄

CuriousaboutSamphire happy to agree we have different opinions on the way the EU is organised. I think there is room for improvement in the EU - more so in the U.K. though.

My point is that is is democratic. Not all democratic systems are the same, or work flawlessly (see the U.K.) but they have the basic structures that imply democracy.

Vote to leave because you don't like the democratic structures, fine.

But the EU is a democratic body.

And yet your very long post is just yet another barrage of "remainers this, remainers that" Well yes. As american is posting in response to posts about it being Leavers who are rude and aggressive! In putting the opposing view there is bound to be something of a list of contrary examples!

I agree OP, I am really down about it all , today , Some of the people I Went to uni with and politically campaigned with, and thought were really good friends with for 20 years , voted leave . And daft as it may seem I really haven't been able to see them ever since.. They were witnesses at our wedding too. I have had to put the photos away.

Wow. You sound worrying narcissistic, fragile and martyr-like. But I can sense your very real pain and disappointment. Who knew you had such vile, stupid racists for best friends eh? All those years and they never once gave a clue or showed their true colours.

Op it is your insistence that you are entitled to his reasons. You are entitled to know why he voted leave. You are entitled to a political debate even though you know you will never agree.

You are entitled to NONE of these things.

It’s your sense of entitlement that is abusive, and your insistence he must justify himself to you.

You are entitled to precisely nothing.
He chooses not to engage with you because it is pointless, but I am sure his respect for you is sinking to an all time low as he tries to keep the peace.

You sound like a typical thuggish remainer.

Blibbyblobby

So please, genuinely and honesty, assuming you were you eligible to vote in the UK Referendum and voted Leave, why did you? I promise not to dismiss anything that isn't factually incorrect or logically flawed.

So apart from the snipe at the end, do you also have the promises form the other remainers on MN?

And my point is that the European Parliament is a democratically elected body but the Commission is not.

Vote to leave because you don't like the democratic structures, fine. I did, thanks!

II mean obviously you wanted to Leave to win and you got that, but I'm guessing you want an actual outcome from that Leave vote*

Yes, I wanted us to leave the EU. Obviously.

You sound like a typical thuggish remainer.

Just let that sink in for a moment: Typical. Thuggish. Remainer. Abusive. And yet it's remainers who are accused of stereotyping and bullying - often purely just for asking questions.

The Council of Ministers is where the real decisions are made and that is also a democratic body.

I am disappointed nobody is challenging my point about the TTIP.

Is that a lack of knowledge or a salient point that cannot be gainsayed?

Could someone explain why

You sound like a typical thuggish remainer is fine

But

You sound like a typical thick leaver is not.

Both are wrong surely?

WIndows Can you not just accept that we see it differently? I am not determinedly saying you are wrong, just that I see the power balance in the EU differently. I voted on that basis!

You can repeat your assertions forever, it won't change my mind as I based my opinion on my interpretation of the same facts as you made yours on. Could I change your mind by telig you something you already know?