Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Circumcision

606 replies

muma19 · 20/03/2019 15:54

DP wants DS circumcised however I don't. I also have MIL getting involved and pressuring me. What do I do? I want to be fair to my partner but I really don't want him veg for circumcised. HELP!!!!

OP posts:
user1496701154 · 20/03/2019 23:33

It's both parents descions unless for medical reasons. My OH is not done but my son has had to be due to medical reasons. I think if he hadn't he won't be. As long as husband teaches babe how to clean down below properly when he's older there's no problem with it not been done

LifeIsToughMate · 21/03/2019 00:01

You come across as very militant in your apparent determination for baby boys to be mutilated at will - it seems very strange, and not a little creepy.

Or he comes from a background quite different to yours? Life is a lot simpler when we let it be.

Op. So I’ll give an example from my faith:

Here is how rulings on certain issues are prioritised in terms of hierarchy:

1- orders and mentions in the Quran
2- well referenced interpretations directly from prophetic sayings and narrated actions ( this could be confirmed or unconfirmed)
3- scholarly consensus
4- contemporary scholarly effort to derive rulings on modern issues based on expert advice
5- personal opinion

Not all those practicing the faith have knowledge of anything aside from the basics as they don’t engage in critical thinking much. It is often that fundamentals of the faith are confused with interpretations and replaceable narratives.

Why I mention this is because for example, in the issue of circumcision it is as follows:

1- it is mentioned in the Quran that we shall follow the example of prophets including Moses , Abraham and Mohammed. It doesn’t however mention circumcision as far as I’m concerned. Debating the authenticity of this source is quite disrespectful to a person adhering to that faith, unless it’s an invited debate. But you can debate the interpretations after you go through the filtering of the following hierarchy.
2- the prophet mentions that circumcision is required, in multiple narrations. He mentions that his brethren prophets were circumcised. ( there is no mention as to why or about cleanliness, it’s purely a requirement of god.) at this level there could be critical thinkng employee about whether those narrations are valid, debatable or none debatable based on authenticity. That won’t be disrespectful.
3- scholarly consensus. There is a consensus that circumcision for males is commendable based on interpretations of the above two sources. There is majority scholarly opinion about it being obligatory for males but not a full consensus. Therefore there is some room for debate. Scholarly consensus usually means the stance of prominent scholars which were at the time when this issue arises until valid consensus was reached (circumcision started as a topic since ever). There is majority opinion on this but no consensus. There is still no mention about medical reasoning or so forth. The prophet mentions that where there is no consensus it is usually a way to leave room for differences. There is no consensus that I’m aware of about which age circumsixion is to happen, so that’s totally up for recommendations. It could’ve been recommended by certain scholars but in our faith we don’t regard scholars as “unmistakable” and that so long as the ruling has not been clarified clear as day by the first two scriptures and so long as consensus hasn’t been reached then contemporary scholarly effort is required to tweak the details of the ruling to what fits circumstances.

4- scholarly effort to derive rulings. This is where contemporary efforts come in. So where there is lack of consensus, on a certain issue or on the application of certain issue, then modern scholarly effort is required. There is a huge amount of scholars to choose from and the idea is you can ask as many as you wish to ask and you settle with the one that you feel at ease with. In fact you are obliged to ask as many as you wish and can settle for none of them but what feels ok for u, so long as you haven’t dismissed the first 3 priorities in the hierarchy. The scholar asked should be well versed in the expert advice on the topic as well as on the different religious interpretations of that topic.. so medical advice is important here and any new medical findings. Because not necessarily the understanding of the application of certain things in the past was based on religious context but perhaps was based on a scholars recommendation which is not considered equal to the word of god in any way and must evolve based on new knowledge and circumstances.

Why am I mentioning this? I believe the OP should try her best to put effort to understand the background of her DH and his family, as it comes as a package with marrying into multicultural families... and when she puts effort she might automatically realise that a lot of what she “assumed” might be set in stone religious beliefs or fundamental practice to their family, might actually have a lot of room for respectable debate..

I do not know the background of her DH, but I’m sure many aspects in our lives are based around core principles and some side ones... it is easy to win people over when you remind them that you respect their core principles..

So while we don’t need to compromise what we have strong opinions about, but we do need to compromise on our attitude in how to handle our differences.. we might be able to work out that we aren’t as diffeeenr as we though.

To the pp mentioning about “sucking” the blood out of a circumsized genital, I’m sure this is not fundamental to the Jewish practice and I’m sure discussing how this practice is grim and leads to medical issues should be ok....

I can understand the debate about the age of conscent and body autonomy. This all still falls within the reason of what’s not just acceptable, but “welcomed” debate based on how my religious understanding is derived and many educated Muslims. However in the presence of medical evidence that can support each side of the debate, I can still refuse this interpretation being imposed on me.. but that’s personal belief. And I can be humble enough to accept i might be wrong- medically speaking. It’s not offensive to be told I’m medically wrong it’s simply a debate.

But to just disrespect circumcision as a whole and call it barbaric mutilation and bloody bla as a result of specific interpretation by a specific group, is ignorance. It’s disrespectful as you are fundemrnally disrespecting the second source of my faith for example.. which is quite an end to any fruitful debate because no one who adheres to this thinking will want to respect you more than their prophet.

I don’t know what set of beliefs derived your in laws understanding of circumcision but it really is worth your efforts to try listen.try look further into things.. ask opinions of those who are intellectuals but within that same culture as your DH not those who will just want to reassure you that you are “right”... not to entertain the possibility of circumcising your child but because this topic might open your eyes about them as people.. which will help you understand how to deal with many issues in the future where you might feel differently- understandably.

No one will force you. You are the mother... you get to make the final call with your DH. And your DH sounds mature enough to think outside the box since he married outside the box!!!

But don’t shut doors or building understanding and tolerance because you are asking the wrong crowd about a topic they know nothing about but what they hear on media.

Part of marrying your DH was to know that you had to at least respect his core values and beliefs... circumcising at birth might not be one of them.. but it sure is part of his core values that he looks up to certain things in his heritage and won’t appreciate you calling it barbaric. So won’t be able to tolerate any debate on side values .So won’t be solving anything.

I’m not saying you will be disrespectful. But this is an emotional topic for you and you are being egged on in this thread, I’m probably gonna have this debate with sil as she is very open with us so will save this on my notes .

You do owe it to your DH that if you want to make some “reform” to his cultural understanding - which isn’t a bad thing - that you at least first make an effort to understand it and find out the core principles that you must not disrespect.

And just because you have a strong opinion about something, doesn’t make it the right answer for someone else. You still need to debate respectfully.

Smotheroffive · 21/03/2019 00:08

Male genital mutilation? Are you fucking joking???

This is a piss take right!? You're not seriously considering mutilating your babys penis for absolutely no good reason?

This should be illegal, wtaf!

FinnegansWhiskers · 21/03/2019 00:09

I've not read the whole thread. I've just come on to say I have 4 boys. None have been circumcised. None have have had any problems. If I thought there was a problem with too tight a foreskin, as a baby, I would have sought medical advice.

OP if you don't think there's a need for circumcision don't do it.

Smotheroffive · 21/03/2019 00:11

Lifeistough god you take yourself overly seriously.

There's no good reason for this no matter how much you talk

Smotheroffive · 21/03/2019 00:13

Putting 'DH' on some sort of pedestal you owe it to your DH bollox

It's your baby you owe it to, to protect and keep them save from ridiculous harmful practices for absolutely no good reason

Smotheroffive · 21/03/2019 00:17

No one needs to understand anything other than its wrong to mutilate a beautiful baby by doing unnecessary and very painful procedures. Screw that shit, and shit it is

Bambooshoot · 21/03/2019 00:52

A question for for anyone who comes from a culture where this is routinely practised - (LifeIsToughMate - I think you have done a good job in presenting the background and I hope this does not come across as confrontational, it is more of a theological query) - if you believe that God or the higher power created mankind, how does your religion explain that God somehow created children with extra parts that it was mankind's duty to get rid of - does this mean God is not perfect, since He/She made a mistake man has to correct?

The alternative seems to be that He/She asking that you make small children suffer, which I cannot get my head around, for a being who supposedly deserves to be worshipped. How is this justified in the religious sense?

Rottencooking · 21/03/2019 01:00

Circumcision should only ever be decided by the man when they reach an age to be able to do so. Don't mutilate your child for bollocks religious or hygiene reasons. It's not unhygienic or dangerous to have a foreskin and even medical conditions can almost always be cured too.

I greatly judge anyone who does that to their child.

Smotheroffive · 21/03/2019 01:03

Doctors on NHS will refuse even a man asking for this, unless there is sound medical issues necessitating

Rottencooking · 21/03/2019 01:04

But to just disrespect circumcision as a whole and call it barbaric mutilation and bloody bla as a result of specific interpretation by a specific group, is ignorance

No it's not and your entire post is a load of waffling bollocks as well. Spin it any way you want, you are causing unnecessary harm and removing an important feature of your child's body without him even being able to consent. Do you even know how many adults grow up wishing they were kept intact and go on to attempt foreskin restoration? A lot. Even though it's all they've known, funny that.

LeesPostersAreInFrames · 21/03/2019 01:55

you are asking the wrong crowd about a topic they know nothing about but what they hear on media

They are asking a bunch of mums and their peers. It seems like only people outside of the communities who do this see it for what it factually is; unnecessarily significantly and permanently damaging a baby's genitals, causing severe pain and distress.

But to just disrespect circumcision as a whole and call it barbaric mutilation and bloody bla as a result of specific interpretation by a specific group, is ignorance

Go on then. Convince us that it's not unnecessarily mutilating a baby's genitals, causing great pain, suffering and trauma.

Butterflycookie · 21/03/2019 02:04

LifeIsToughMate

Just because you don’t think it’s barbaric doesn’t mean it isn’t.
Just because your religion tells you to do or behave in a certain way doesn’t mean other people should agree.

For example, if my religion said that babies must have their little finger cut off for whatever reason, surely you’d think that was barbaric. Or that children must be locked in the dark without food or water because it’s written in the holy book, does that mean you’d agree. These are ridiculous examples, but just trying to explain that just because your religion tells you to do something doesn’t mean other people have to accept it and doesn’t make it right. We can have our opinions....and if people think it’s barbaric and you don’t then that’s your opinion.

Bicyclethief · 21/03/2019 03:19

lifeistough Bore off with your close minded nonsense.

Wow, this would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

StoppinBy · 21/03/2019 03:27

First off.... tell your MIL to butt out, it is none of her business.

When I was pregnant the issue came up, my husband is circumcised and wanted our children if they were boys to be done too. I asked him whether he would be happy if we had a daughter to have her circumcised and I also showed him a video of a circumcision and asked him if he would hold our baby while they were circumcised, both times he answered, no that he wouldn't. I told him straight out that if he was truly ok with it then he would be ok with holding our children while it was done and he agreed.

Luckily that was the end of the story for us. To be honest whether he had said yes or no it would have been over my dead body that someone would be cutting off parts of my child unnecessarily but it definitely made it a lot easier having him on board.

We now have a DD and a DS, he is not circumcised.

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis · 21/03/2019 07:28

Why and how many boys/men need to be circumcised for medical reasons?

HotpotLawyer · 21/03/2019 07:50

Whatever anyone else’s ideological position the OP does not want her baby circumcised and needs to find a way to remain resolute about this whilst still, presumably, keeping her family relationships.

How can she best do this?

cochineal7 · 21/03/2019 08:00

My DH had it done as an adult (different country different culture) so unlike most is in a position to compare. His vote is a resounding no don’t do it. And he convinced his (religious reasons) friends to not do it to their son.

Mother87 · 21/03/2019 08:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hazlenutpie · 21/03/2019 08:12

I’ve seen first hand baby boys who have been circumcised. It’s genital mutilation and is barbaric. I have a boy child and the very thought of having a part of his body removed fills me with revulsion.

BabyDarlingDollfaceHoney · 21/03/2019 08:25

I've only read up to page three but couldn't actually contain myself any longer before posting.

CIRCUMCISION IS IN NO WAY COMPARABLE TO FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION.

In FGM the clitoris is removed, to keep girls "clean" by preventing them from experiencing sexual pleasure. This is removing a basic human right. Circumcised men retain the use of a fully functional penis and enjoy normal sexual sensation and pleasure.

I'm actually incandescent at men claiming the two are the same. It's another example of the bloody men men men men men obsessed culture we live in that the two issues are even being discussed on the same thread. And there's a load of women making the comments too?! What is wrong with people?! 🤯

BabyDarlingDollfaceHoney · 21/03/2019 08:26

I'm against circumcision too by the way but let's not be utterly utterly ridiculous here and compare it to FGM.

JacquesHammer · 21/03/2019 08:26

CIRCUMCISION IS IN NO WAY COMPARABLE TO FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION

For me the comparison isn’t the nature of the procedures which I agree are vastly different. But in that they both are procedures done to young people without their consent.

Hazlenutpie · 21/03/2019 08:29

Both are mutilation, let’s not forget that. Just because male circumcision removes less than FGM, it doesn’t make it right. Comparing the two isn’t helpful.

BabyDarlingDollfaceHoney · 21/03/2019 08:30

Yes, it's done without consent. That's basically where the similarities lie. It's closer in nature to getting a baby's ears pierced than it is to FGM.