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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Circumcision

606 replies

muma19 · 20/03/2019 15:54

DP wants DS circumcised however I don't. I also have MIL getting involved and pressuring me. What do I do? I want to be fair to my partner but I really don't want him veg for circumcised. HELP!!!!

OP posts:
ConcreteUnderpants · 29/03/2019 18:58

breeze44 I'd bow out. You are fighting a losing battle here, but i wanted to thank you for your attempts to educate us on what it actually means in your culture.

I think you've remained exceptionally calm and pleasant, often in the face of quite the opposite. Well done.

Smotheroffive · 29/03/2019 20:30

I wasn't asking for, or needing explanations! But thanks anyway,just wondered, as the thread ran away with itself without OP!

There seem to be a lot of threads that get started and OPs just vanish, poor netiquette.

gamerchick · 29/03/2019 21:14

Yeah and then they generally pop up on daytime telly once the threads nice and beefy.

Smotheroffive · 29/03/2019 23:27

They do?

Smotheroffive · 29/03/2019 23:27
Hmm
breeze44 · 30/03/2019 07:45

JAPAB I think that's an important point for discussion and I was actually thinking that I should clarify that in practice this doesn't mean disagreement in every case.

I agree with you up to a point but not fully. If we take a couple of examples you gave, donating a kidney should obviously only be done with the permission of the person donating in the case of a live donor. If the donor was deceased it could be a bit more complicated as others such as relatives might be the ones giving consent on the person's behalf.
But if we take the example of tattoos, again obviously I would agree that no-one should be tattooed against their will. However, presumably you would also say that an adult should have the right TO get a tattoo if they wish, whereas in Islam tattooing is forbidden altogether. So if I knew a Muslim who wanted to get a tattoo I would disagree with that and try to convince them not to do it by explaining the Islamic ruling on it, whereas in my experience most people in the West will accept that and believe it should be the person's own choice whether they do it or not.

It's interesting that the example we focused on is circumcision, as with regards to other issues the general principle is that Muslims should not make any permanent body modifications without a medical need, even if they want to do that.

So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that although we would agree on many issues in practice, the actual principles and ideas that inform our respective attitudes are very different. You are correct in saying that the difference in our perspectives is unlikely to be brought out unless there is an actual difference in practice.

Let's imagine for example a hypothetical case where a woman's parents were forcing her to get married to a man that she disliked, and she was distressed at the prospect. Presumably we would both agree that she should not be forced. But unless someone actually enquired as to our reasoning behind it, they wouldn't realise that my opinion is based on the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)instructed us not to force women to get married, whereas you would probably mention arguments based on human rights and individual choice.

I guess that's one of my reasons really for getting involved in discussions on this forum, I think that because different cultures do agree in practice on many issues, people tend to assume that the same principles and reasoning underpin those agreements, which can then lead to frustration and confusion when areas of disagreement such as circumcision become a topic of discussion.

sagradafamiliar · 30/03/2019 07:57

See for me I'd just know that forced marriage is wrong without having to consult a religious text. If forced marriage was instructed, then you would condone it. You're saying it's only because it wasn't, that you don't agree with it. It's interesting.
Note that I haven't mentioned once which faith system I belong to btw.

breeze44 · 30/03/2019 08:04

Smother, I am not ignoring that poster nor denying his experience. It seems that you think his description of how he would feel means that all babies must be feeling pain or discomfort when recovering from circumcision.

I am telling you that my own children did not seem to be in the kind of discomfort that the poster describes, as evidenced by the fact that my son was happily bouncing on his bed just a few hours after the procedure.

Would it reassure you to know that we were given full aftercare advice by the clinic for the first two weeks after circumcision, including:

  • Bathing the area in warm water twice daily
  • Using antibacterial ointment on the head of the penis twice daily
  • Liberally applying a layer of Vaseline to every fresh nappy (obviously, this means washing hands thoroughly and then applying the Vaseline to the clean nappy before starting the nappy change).
  • Applying a cooling soothing gel to the tip of the penis at every nappy change for the first few days

If these instructions are followed then the head of the penis will not rub or chafe against the nappy as it is constantly lubricated, nor will it, as a poster claimed, get stuck to the nappy leading to the ripping off of scabs. Neither of my kids had any scabs.

breeze44 · 30/03/2019 08:07

If forced marriage was instructed, then you would condone it.

But it isn't, so there's no point in talking about hypotheticals that will never arise.

breeze44 · 30/03/2019 08:13

ConcreteUnderpants, thank you for your kind words and I appreciate that you and almosthuman took a more measured approach to the issue.

I think it's time for me to take a backseat to the discussion. There have been some interesting points discussed and I will keep an eye on the thread in case any genuinely new/interesting angle of discussion comes up, but if not there is little point in coming back to keep going over and over the same points.

ConcreteUnderpants · 30/03/2019 08:42

Indeed. And as depressing comments such as the one below show, sadly you were wasting your breath from the off.
I wasn't asking for, or needing explanations!

No wonder the world is in such a mess with this I don't like what you do, i think it's wrong, I'm superior and I'm not even going to find out more about it attitude.

SweetMarmalade · 30/03/2019 08:47

@PinkPupZ thanks for sharing your Ds’s story.

Ds only has a tiny area to pee through as his forskin is still not budging. He did have an issue last year which caused irritation. That’s when the cream was suggested.

Really feel for him but I think it’s time we went back to the GP who then refer us. He’s 13 in September, so I’m presuming for most 12/13 years olds this has already happened (only have one Ds). He’ll feel better that circumcision won’t necessarily be needed and that there are other things to try first, hopefully.

sagradafamiliar · 30/03/2019 10:13

Breeze but your story was a hypothetical one. It seems fine for you to speak hypothetically but no one else. That's ok. You've made your point over and over and over again. The conversation is circular at this point.

breeze44 · 30/03/2019 10:45

My example was about a hypothetical situation which could potentially occur, but yours was about something that can never occur.
Ok, I really am going now.

Alsohuman · 30/03/2019 12:01

@Breeze, I’m in awe at your calmness and patience in the face of extreme provocation. You have my utmost respect.

CallipygianFancier · 30/03/2019 12:05

"Oh, don't worry, when we unnecessarily mutilate out child, we do it as nicely as possible".

Your son is fine years after being circumcised because the area around the damage has healed up and desensitised. This would be true for almost anything else you wish to surgically remove from an infant also.

It does not make the decision OK. You were wrong to do it. You are wrong to defend it being done to others.

Smotheroffive · 30/03/2019 16:52

You still dodged his actual experience breeze and you have no interest in it, because you would then have to accept that you have taken a decision to cut a baby boy without his explicit consent , and to take into account what an adult male has to say about the experience of sensitivity that you in your arrogance have destroyed.

It is arrogance when its clear that a male is the best placed to explain their experience of having not had a DM who removed a vital part of their body,just because.

Yes, do bow out, because you derailing after-care, etc, is pointless in terms of real discussion no-one cares,its a very basic expectation after such cruelty, that you at least try to recover the situation as best as possible to avoid further suffering. Unfortunately what you do in those few days, putting aside for the moment the larger risks, has lifelong implications for another life that you have permanently altered and not without added risks.

Smotheroffive · 30/03/2019 17:52

You also didn't say anything to convince anyone that cutting a baby is a thing we should all be doing, despite your dogged and relentless attitude.

You certainly gave it your all. So glad no-one was convinced it was a good idea!!

MrsBethel · 18/04/2019 14:51

Poor chap:

'My son killed himself after circumcision'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47292307

Camomila · 18/04/2019 14:59

Circumsicion is the norm in DHs culture.

I said no way way was anyone chopping bits off my baby without medical need. Luckily DH agreed with me and if DS wants it done he can do it when he’s an adult/old enough to decide for himself.

Smotheroffive · 18/04/2019 15:47

Thank you for finding and sharing that tragic story.

I was ignorant of the numbers of babies that bleed to death directly from circumcision!

I was ignorant to the numbers of adult males that commit suicide due to the effects of adult circumcision.

I was ignorant to the facts of the number of African males who die and who penis drops off post teenage circumcision rituals.

This is all so shocking.

My feelings, thoughts and heart goes out to this poor boy's poor DM. Something that should never have to happen to anyone in this day and age.
Flowers

Smotheroffive · 18/04/2019 15:49

It seems that there is a growing movement for naming this what it is, male genital mutilation, and to abolish it.

Smotheroffive · 18/04/2019 15:50

Religion or not, its abhorrent.

JAPAB · 18/04/2019 17:33

If it wasn't a tradition or religious requirement, if someone had just thought of circumcising males for the first time in 2019, there is no way in hell it would get legally sanctioned. Those proposing it might instead just get incredulous 'are you being serious' looks.

Smotheroffive · 18/04/2019 21:18

I'd go so far as to say that those actually proposing doing it would get locked up for perversion