Circumcision

[muma19]

DP wants DS circumcised however I don't. I also have MIL getting involved and pressuring me. What do I do? I want to be fair to my partner but I really don't want him veg for circumcised. HELP!!!!

The foreskin just needs to be pulled back to be cleaned. It’s no different from women cleaning their vaginas. To suggest this is something difficult at a time where most people shower daily is ridiculous.

Sorry OP I haven't read the thread but just wanted to add we did it and regretted it. If I had my time again I would have never done it. We did it for religious reasons however as it was happening I realised it is so unnecessary. I'm going to be controversial and say times move on and religion needs to and can adapt.

It if helps go and see how they actually keep your baby still. That is enough to change your mind. DH fainted half way through as well.

As I haven't read your thread, sorry I don't know how old your child is but the older the baby then the harder it is. My brother was a newborn and slept through his whereas my son was about 5 months and I'm sorry to say it was horrific. DH and I are still traumatised.

women cleaning their vaginas women don't 'clean' their vaginas, gravity brings everything out and nothing should be put in!!! What do you use soap and vag bristles!?

Ok their labias.

I didn't read the entire thread but I honestly believe that in this day and age it is completely disgraceful that practices like this still take place. If it's not for a medical reason it should never be done. We have outlawed many other barbaric and disgusting things. For example I see little difference between the mutilation of dogs (docking, cropping etc) and the apparent need to alter a human being. Imo you should only be able to decide lifelong changes for your own body. If later in life someone wants surgery that's up to them but to have even a small part of your child removed is a grave misuse of power.

Haven't RTFT but I don't agree at all with genital mutilation. Period.

I can only assume that those who think washing it is difficult must be of the female persuasion. Personally I find washing my back more difficult.

Or they are being deliberately obtuse and looking for a reason to justify it JAPAB.

Well done OP, and well done OP's DH for understanding and not being a dogmatic bell end about it.

There is a non-zero complication rate for these procedures. Infection is not uncommon. It's completely unnecessary, and simply stems from a time when people: a) didn't clean, and b) wanted to stop children masturbating.

Severe complications are thankfully rare, but if you could buy your son a lottery ticket where the prize was lifelong loss of function of the penis (eg accidental amputation of the glans)... even if it was a million to one, you wouldn't do it, would you!

I think there is a lot of education needed around this, as clearly religion seems to be 'filling many gaps'.

Somethings very wrong if anyone doesnt know the basics of fe/male bodies in this day.

Religious 'cleanliness' is clearly overriding the facts of reality, and I would suggest that's done through fear of doing the wrong thing. After all, there are still something like 70% of girls cut in Africa.

It's a very vicious circle that needs breaking.

Anyone who makes their child go through a painful, permanent and unnecessary mutilation because they think their sadist of a god demands it is not fit to be a parent imo.

Turisas - you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but Jews seem to have the best life chances of any ethnic group in the U.K, which is remarkable given that we're apparently not fit to be parents.

You attribute this to loss of foreskin and resultant pain then, or whata your point in saying that here?

It makes no sense considering the threads point. Highly irrelevant.

It's certainly no excuse for enforced unnecessary procedures.

How can you even try to defend it in this way

Your saying you live longer because you butcher your children without their consent?

Not all Jews do this. I am friends with a lovely Jewish couple who completely oppose circumcision saying times have changed.

Turisas - what I'm saying is that this thread is an example of the disconnect between RL and MN. People compete with each other to say how shocked they are, eg "mutilation", "take their kids into care", "I'd never be friends with anyone who did it", "sadistic God", etc etc. But it's just an echo chamber - no-one is actually going to be influenced by it.

In RL, the govt isn't going to do anything. Loads of people, in particular Jews and Muslims, are having their children done, getting on with it, and they seem to be doing quite nicely. so if you want to change things you'll need to engage with them, which is exactly the opposite of what this thread is doing.

I think the most likely driver of change is the courts.

A slight change in attitude there, and it could become the norm for circumcised men to sue the medic/cleric who did it to them.

We could easily reach the point where lawyers are advertising on the radio (have you been circumcised against your will?), and where millions/billions in compensation changes hands.

From that point on, no hospital or religion that wanted to avoid bankruptcy would do it. It would be consigned to the past, where it belongs.

Mrs B - the only problem is that the courts have made it clear that it is permitted where both parents agree. But you may have stumbled upon an excellent Inheritance tax dodge. If someone sues their own parents for, say, £1m, it would be received tax-free and reduce the estate accordingly, so saving IHT at 40%, minus legal fees, of course, but these wouldn't be much.

Sam you have a strange view on things, describing pp as competing ....[levels of] shock

We're genuine RL people who are shocked and distressed and very much against cutting without sound medical reasons

I like the cut of your jib @SamG76, as a way of avoiding inheritance tax that couldn’t be bettered. You’re definitely on to something here.

I didn’t even realise that circumcision was even still a conversation to be had- certainly none of my religious friends (well, not all my religious friends as not all religions “require” it, but you know what I mean) have ever suggested it would be a good idea. There are literally no arguments (save actual diagnosed medical conditions which can only be solved by circumcision) where it is a good idea. Cleanliness is a ridiculous suggestion- no one cuts off their fingers or mutilates their bum crack just because those areas might get dirty. They wash them properly because they were taught how to as children! Same goes for the penis or indeed the vulva. You can’t just cut part of someone else’s anatomy off on the off chance that they might not clean it sufficiently. That’s absurd.

The religious aspect is even more ridiculous. Cut a part of your own child off on the basis that some deity or god who no one in living memory (and arguably any memory at all depending on how religious you are) has actually met?! Fucking hell. I wonder what other stupid shit people could be persuaded into on the sole basis of “because He said so”?! Following a religion doesn't prevent you from using your brain (or at least it shouldn’t!) to realise that mutilating someone else’s body is not ok!

I’m struggling to shut my mouth after realising that people do genuinely believe that it is either healthier or holier to have it done. I might remove my kids toes to stop them getting athletes foot. Would save me a fortune on daktarin and years of saying “would you PLEASE dry your feet properly!”

No pattern - you genuinely didn't realise it happens any more. What a diverse group of friends you must have (though pretty typical for MN).

No pattern - you genuinely didn't realise it happens any more. What a diverse group of friends you must have (though pretty typical for MN)

What a goady, completely unnecessary and sarcastic, nasty post SamG.

Whats your purpose and intent here exactly?

Smotheroffive, sam's post was nothing of the kind. It was very tame compared to the language used by people on this thread who are against circumcision.

It is a genuine problem when people are so unable to see how their own cultural background has informed and influenced their view of a particular practice and then they start using strong language like 'barbaric' and 'sadistic' to talk about something that for other cultures is completely normal and unproblematic.