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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Circumcision

606 replies

muma19 · 20/03/2019 15:54

DP wants DS circumcised however I don't. I also have MIL getting involved and pressuring me. What do I do? I want to be fair to my partner but I really don't want him veg for circumcised. HELP!!!!

OP posts:
breeze44 · 26/03/2019 17:41

With regards to what I mentioned about cleaning earlier, I think some people were wilfully misrepresenting what I said. When one poster admitted she didn't know the answer to my question and the two who answered it gave conflicting answers, it's not my naivety that's the problem.
Talking about showering once a day or washing your back is irrelevant to what I was saying because as Muslims we have to pray five times a day at specific times, and if a person has urinated since the last time they had a shower they would have to clean themselves again before praying. If that was in the middle of the day on their break from work they wouldn't have access to a shower.

GladAllOver · 26/03/2019 17:42

It is a genuine problem when people are so unable to see how their own cultural background has informed and influenced their view of a particular practice and then they start using strong language like 'barbaric' and 'sadistic' to talk about something that for other cultures is completely normal and unproblematic.

In some other cultures, FGM is normal and unproblematic. Does that mean we can't call it barbaric?

breeze44 · 26/03/2019 17:48

The word barbaric is not in my vocabulary. Do you think using it would persuade anyone to change their view? Obviously not, if anything it would put people off even listening to you.

samG76 · 26/03/2019 18:01

Smother - my purpose and intent was to say, as I did, that Pattern seems to have a certain lack of diversity among her friends. Suppose I said that none of my friends are gay/transgender/whatever and I didn't realise it was a thing. People wouldn't be impressed. But where someone says they deliberately don't become friends with cultures comprising about 30% of the world population, it is somehow considered worthy and even a matter of pride.

Lifeover · 26/03/2019 18:08

No chopping body parts off childrenis stupid at best assault at worse. Tell DH your ds will get circumsized the day DH gets abody part of your choosing removed.

MissConductUS · 26/03/2019 18:23

I've not RTFT, so apologies if this has been brought up. I have no skin in this game (ha ha) but the procedure does reduce the incidence of STI's for men and women.

Male Circumcision: A Globally Relevant but Under-Utilized Method for the Prevention of HIV and Other Sexually Transmitted Infections

Association between male circumcision and women's biomedical health outcomes: a systematic review.

I think the practice is more common in the US. I let DH make the call for DS after giving him the medical research.

Mississippilessly · 26/03/2019 18:28

But pain is pain it's irrelevant whether its culturally acceptable.
The Incas thought that child sacrifice was ok. Obviously I'm not equating the two but where is the line? As has been explained circumcision is more drastic than the 2 lowest levels of FGM and yet most would consider FGM unacceptable.

For me the biggest argument is that regardless of the levels of pain or the risk of your injury it shouldn't be a decision made by anyone except the individual.

Mississippilessly · 26/03/2019 18:29

You know what really reduces STIs? Condoms.

sagradafamiliar · 26/03/2019 18:31

Breeze, what were the two conflicting answers to your question?

Connieston · 26/03/2019 18:34

Leave him as he is.dont inflict surgery on a newborn.

Florescentadolescent · 26/03/2019 21:28

I may be wrong but, I think the reason circumsised men have lower rates of std's is because the groups that have it done - relegious or higher social / economic class, tend to have less sexual partners and/or practice safe sex more.

It's nothing to do with cutting a bit of skin off, but the myth is kept going in America. I mean think about it, hiv is in the fluid how would cutting the skin stop the spread.

ConcreteUnderpants · 26/03/2019 21:52

Dismissing other people's religious faith as an excuse is utterly insulting. The contempt for deeply and sincerely held beliefs here is truly shocking.

Well said, Alsohuman
Really shocked at some of the insults and disgraceful comments on here.

It appears some people are unable to put their point of view across without being downright offensive and showing an iota of respect.

Smotheroffive · 26/03/2019 22:12

...and in some.cultures beating the shit out of your wife is normal so is raping her, that's upsettingly 'normal' in the UK!!

Normalised, minimised, whatever you want to call it its not ok.

It's certainly not ok to permanently maim a child just because you can't get to a shower in the middle of the day, surely the rest of your body is filthy too, by that reckoning.

And no, its not about having to accept something that I do see as harmful, painful, lifelong infliction, without a baby's consent

I can get pissed about it, and I don't agree there's a reason to justify this.

What 'rule' is this that says you are unclean because you took a piss?

You do you urine is sterile?
So please define 'dirty'

Even if we wash, we are still dirty, this is just crazy talk.

Smotheroffive · 26/03/2019 22:14

Can you explain your issues with 'folding' or 'rolling' as it is beyond me to understand what you mean by 'folding' back?

And why this matters so much to you?

Smotheroffive · 26/03/2019 22:15

It makes me wonder whether you have seen a foreskin retract on an erect penis, I guess not considering your culture has them all butchered.

Hadjab · 26/03/2019 22:17

I didn’t have my son circumcised. He ended up having it done at the age of 16 as his foreskin was too tight.

MissConductUS · 26/03/2019 22:26

I may be wrong but, I think the reason circumsised men have lower rates of std's is because the groups that have it done - relegious or higher social / economic class, tend to have less sexual partners and/or practice safe sex more.

If you look at the links I posted you'll see that most of the studies were conducted is sub Saharan Africa. There no inference from any other cohorts.

It's nothing to do with cutting a bit of skin off, but the myth is kept going in America. I mean think about it, hiv is in the fluid how would cutting the skin stop the spread.

The studies I cited did't test for a mechanism of action. The effect is quite robust and not in anyway a "myth". Here's what researchers think the MOA's are:

Study Shows Circumcised Men Have Less Risk of Herpes, Genital Wart/Cancer Virus

How can circumcision prevent STDs? In at least three ways:

When the foreskin is removed, the skin covering the head of the penis becomes tougher. That may protect against "microtears" during sex that can provide a point of entry for germs.

The mucosal lining of the foreskin may allow germs to penetrate to underlying skin cells.

After sex, the foreskin may prolong the time that tender skin is exposed to germs.

Circumcised men may be protecting their sex partners as well as themselves, suggest University of Washington researchers Matthew R. Golden, MD, MPH, and Judith N. Wasserheit, MD, MPH, in an editorial accompanying the Tobian study.

Data from earlier studies indicate that monogamous women with circumcised sex partners are only half as likely to get cervical cancer as are women with uncircumcised sex partners. And the Tobian study shows that circumcision cuts the risk of HPV, the virus that can cause cervical cancer

Smotheroffive · 26/03/2019 22:35

If you cut the bollox off there wouldn't be any testicular cancer, oh and slicing of women's breasts will remove breast cancers
Not forgetting hysterectomy to remove cervical and ovarian cancer

We could be opting for heart removals too that way there'd be no heart attacks

Same.flawed logic Confused

GladAllOver · 26/03/2019 22:35

If foreskins were useless and harboured infection, it's very strange that they have not disappeared entirely after thouamds of years of evolution.

Smotheroffive · 26/03/2019 22:36

Yes glad they evolved for a purpose.

nolongersurprised · 26/03/2019 22:47

Surely decisions about sexual health should be made by the teenager or young adult themselves? Present them with the up to date sexual health information, discuss condom use and then they can decide whether or not to opt for circumcision as an adult. And then at least it’ll be done under GA which is more humane.

Every single organ in the body can potentially become diseased or infected. They don’t all need to be removed as a baby “just in case”.

Smotheroffive · 26/03/2019 22:49

I'd like my foreskin cut off please, said no man ever!

MissConductUS · 26/03/2019 22:54

If you cut the bollox off there wouldn't be any testicular cancer

That's a flawed analogy. Circumcision isn't asserted to prevent cancer of the foreskin but it is shown to reduce the risk of systemic STI's.

If foreskins were useless and harboured infection, it's very strange that they have not disappeared entirely after thouamds of years of evolution.

Not at all strange. There are other lots of useless or maladaptive things in human anatomy that evolution hasn't eliminated.

The Most Unfortunate Design Flaws in the Human Body

You can certainly make a moral case that it's wrong to perform elective surgery on an infant, but the medical benefits are irrefutable.

MissConductUS · 27/03/2019 00:02

If foreskins were useless and harboured infection, it's very strange that they have not disappeared entirely after thouamds of years of evolution.

By the way, this comment reflects a common misunderstanding about evolution. If something doesn't kill us before we pass the earliest possible child rearing age it's irrelevant from an evolutionary standpoint. You're basically out of warranty by age 30 or so because by then you've either passed on your genes or you haven't. This is also why we have no effective defense against diseases like cancer or heart disease that are quite rare in people under the age of 30.

nolongersurprised · 27/03/2019 00:25

That's a flawed analogy. Circumcision isn't asserted to prevent cancer of the foreskin but it is shown to reduce the risk of systemic STI's.

So let the sexually active boy/man make his own risk assessment. What gives you the right to make decisions/inferences about his sexual practices when he is a baby?

Maybe he’ll choose abstinence, maybe he’ll be asexual. Terrible excuse given to circumcise a newborn.

Alternatively, he may be angry about those tiny nerve endings that have been popped off without his consent, again, he can be given the choice.

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