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AIBU?

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Original poster

To let you know thought crime is now a thing

317 replies

CalliopeMeansMusic · 20/03/2019 09:41

Apologies for the odious DM link, but this has really chilled me.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6827459/Catholic-journalist-questioned-caution-police-misgendering-someones-daughter.html

A woman is being investigated by police and faces a two year jail sentence for allegedly misgendering Jackie Green during a tweet. What has the world become when we cannot state simple, biological facts without fear of prosecution? And why do the beliefs of the mother and daughter (that they are now living as a member of the opposite sex) trump the beliefs of Caroline Farrow? I am all for protecting vulnerable people from hate crimes, but this is not a hate crime, and makes a mockery of people facing real discrimination and fear.

On the plus side, I may move to Surrey; clearly its ridiculously safe if the police have all that time to investigate this!

OP posts:
RedDogsBeg · 22/03/2019 16:02

Can I just clarify, the tweets weren't directed at her, as in her twitter name wasn't included. They were statements made about the head of a charity for children, and they are factual.

Just re-posting this for you LimeKiwi and to reiterate the tweets were not sent to Susie Green they were posted on Caroline Farrow's Twitter Account for any and everyone to read.

LimeKiwi · 22/03/2019 16:02

But if I said, directly to you "Fuck off you twatting idiot" I would get deleted and probably banned from MN...

That's got nothing to do with hate crime though - that'd be breaking the talk guidelines of MN by personal attack against posters.
Which as you said get deleted.
Not hate crime though.

RedDogsBeg · 22/03/2019 16:04

Not hate crime though. Nor is anything Caroline Farrow stated in her tweets.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 22/03/2019 16:05

That's got nothing to do with hate crime though Nor had anything CF tweeted. She just wasn't being polite. That's the whole point.

LimeKiwi · 22/03/2019 16:06

Just re-posting this for you LimeKiwi and to reiterate the tweets were not sent to Susie Green they were posted on Caroline Farrow's Twitter Account for any and everyone to read

OK, fair enough - if they were about her though, even if she's not tagged in it doesn't mean it's automatically not aimed at her, does it? If they're about you, then they're about you whether there's a tag or a message sent or not.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 22/03/2019 16:11

If they're about you, then they're about you whether there's a tag or a message sent or not.

Its not harassment though as they're not sent to her. As they were also factual, and publicly available info, about a public figure in receipt of funds... entirely reasonable. and necessary

LimeKiwi · 22/03/2019 16:15

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you LimeKiwi there is no such crime as misgendering

And I have AGREED with you, there is no such crime as misgendering! As it can be a mistake. There IS though if someone repeatedly harassed someone else by refusing to call them she, or a bloke in a dress for example, all in the name of "but I'm telling the truth so why can't I keep on calling them that?"
You'd be tipping into hate crime against a person for being who they are, even if you won't accept that you were doing such a thing.

MorningsEleven · 22/03/2019 16:15

They were statements made about the head of a charity for children, and they are factual.

You genuinely agree that Susie Green is a child abuser? You think that's a fact? Jeezo fucking Nazareth.

M3lon · 22/03/2019 16:17

jessica I didn't say I thought what was published actually WAS hate speech..for that matter it doesn't look like any sort of conviction is in the offing.

I said if you post things likely to be perceived as hate speech in a public forum you can expect to get investigated for it.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 22/03/2019 16:17

You genuinely agree that Susie Green is a child abuser? You think that's a fact?

I think that under British law, that removing children genitals is a crime because of safeguarding, which implies quite strongly it is child abuse.
Do you think someone who performs FGM or takes their child for it, is a child abuser? British law does.

M3lon · 22/03/2019 16:19

I also agree with lime. If I get called 'he' once then its odd but whatever. If someone I've introduced myself to as female continues to call me 'he' in order to other me then I'd be making a complaint.

BTW I'm a born female, not that it matters, who has occasionally been misgendered.

RedDogsBeg · 22/03/2019 16:20

And I have AGREED with you, there is no such crime as misgendering! As it can be a mistake. There IS though if someone repeatedly harassed someone else by refusing to call them she, or a bloke in a dress for example, all in the name of "but I'm telling the truth so why can't I keep on calling them that?"

There is no BUT, there either is or isn't a crime of 'misgendering' and as you agree there isn't, there isn't.

There is a crime of harassment and one of malicious communication but in both cases it is a pretty high bar to reach for prosecution.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 22/03/2019 16:24

You genuinely agree that Susie Green is a child abuser? You think that's a fact? Jeezo fucking Nazareth. What else do you call a person who takes a child to a foreign country for an operation that is illegal at home?

A country's laws were changed because of the repercussions of her actions.

If she had taken a daughter away for FGM would you still be all Jeezo! about it?

LimeKiwi · 22/03/2019 16:25

There is no BUT, there either is or isn't a crime of 'misgendering' and as you agree there isn't, there isn't.

Hate crime IS though did you see the bit of my post where if you kept on doing it, that's harassment, and as a pp said, to other?
Misgendering in itself, isn't. Repeatedly doing so to harass even though you know full well what you're doing, IS.

Bluestitch · 22/03/2019 16:32

I think SG was an abusive parent. I think removing toys due to homophobia is abusive, I think sourcing illegal medication for a child is abusive and I think taking an underaged child for irreversible life altering surgery is abusive. I'm surprised the idea that is abusive behaviour is controversial.

JessicaWakefieldSVH · 22/03/2019 16:34

at the time she was referring to, the 15 year old child was a boy and was being taken to a country for something illegal here. If all you're concerned about in that tweet, is that she correctly identified him as a boy, as their mother has when referring to that point in time, then frankly I don't think your concern is directed where it needs to be.

sackrifice · 22/03/2019 16:37

Looks like you missed my earlier post, so I'll post it again for you.

No I saw that, you needed to explain what you thought was ILLEGAL about them. Not just your thoughts on them.

'Hate crime IS though did you see the bit of my post where if you kept on doing it, that's harassment, and as a pp said, to other?'

What should be illegal is 'getting your child's genitals removed' but hey ho, we can't be pointing the finger and upsetting people now can we?

The way you are looking at it, if a rapist gets called a rapist on twitter, they could call the cops for the hate crime of calling the rapist a rapist, whilst the actual rape - meh.

RedDogsBeg · 22/03/2019 16:42

Which is why I said there is a crime of harassment and malicious communication.

AstonishedFemalePersonator · 22/03/2019 16:43

the hate crime of calling the rapist a rapist, whilst the actual rape - meh.

I've figured out the code: if the rapist didn't intend to rape anyone the rape was not a crime. If the victim intended to make the rapist feel bad their comment is a crime. The key concept is "intent".

AstonishedFemalePersonator · 22/03/2019 16:45

Oh, and if the victim repeats that they were raped, that is harassment and therefore a crime. But the actual rape wasn't because there was no intent and no harassment.

sackrifice · 22/03/2019 16:52

It is utterly unfathomable how many people are defending a woman who had her child's genitals removed; and who is getting invited in to present on the matter.

No wonder she had to have DrJulia Long removed.

LimeKiwi · 22/03/2019 17:00

Calling a rapist a rapist on Twitter isn't a hate crime though, so that isn't even comparable.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 22/03/2019 17:03

Nope! You are doing it again! I can read each individual word, I know what they mean, but somehow... it just squirrels away at the last moment!

SG did do the things CF said she did. SG herself has often said she did! SG has made a whole career, a charity, a name for herself discussing and defending those very things So, as with a known rapist there should be no issue!

RedDogsBeg · 22/03/2019 17:12

Having an opinion based on the actions, fact, statements and policy of a charity and the head of said charity and stating said opinion publicly is not a hate crime either.

LimeKiwi · 22/03/2019 17:43

Nope! You are doing it again! I can read each individual word, I know what they mean, but somehow... it just squirrels away at the last moment!

I'm not doing anything again, just stating calling a rapist a rapist on Twitter wouldn't be a hate crime, but deliberately harassing a transperson would be.