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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask Leavers if this is what you voted for?

452 replies

longwayoff · 19/03/2019 22:35

And if it is are you looking forward to 29th?

OP posts:
Clavinova · 20/03/2019 22:17

Windowsareforcheaters

Clavinova have I explained the nature of federalism to you on a previous thread?

Yes you did - but I don't think the UK is compatible with a Federal EU - we have several opt-outs already.

David Cameron wanted a "looser EU" not a closer one;

Mr Cameron is constantly being frustrated by a class of mandarins who came of age–bureaucratically speaking–during the glory days of European integration.

For these relics of a bygone age ... to defend a federalist dream

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12162756/This-is-David-Camerons-last-chance-to-beat-the-EU-bureaucrats.html

Brexit is a revolt against a German-run European super-state

Britain's idea of a united Europe has never been more than a free-trading area.

www.cnbc.com/2019/02/04/brexit-is-a-revolt-against-german-run-europe-super-state---commentary.html

everythingisginandroses · 20/03/2019 22:21

Using no deal as a negotiating tactic is like threatening to shoot yourself in the head if you don't get what you want. Or using your populace as a human shield.

Clavinova · 20/03/2019 22:23

JediJim

I also think that taking no deal off the negotiation table is beyond stupid as well. A bit like going into a football match and leaving your best player on the sub bench.

The polls agree with you;

Now that MPs have voted for Brexit to be delayed, do you agree or disagree with the following statements?

MPs damaged the chances of the UK being able to negotiate a good deal with the EU by taking ‘no-deal’ off the negotiation table

Agree 50% Disagree 23% Don't know 27%

twofingerstoEverything · 20/03/2019 22:26

JediJim We are also still part of the EU at this very point in time so presumably still paying the 350 million a week into the EU.
We have never paid £350 million a week into the EU. When will people stop promoting this myth?
in facts
or for those who might find that website a little bit 'remainy' here's FullFact
You might also like to consider the value of the benefits we receive as part of our membership...

Clavinova · 20/03/2019 22:29

From the link to FullFact;

The UK actually paid closer to £250 million a week.

Clavinova · 20/03/2019 22:31

Still sounds a lot to me.

JediJim · 20/03/2019 22:33

Everythingisginandroses, that’s ridiculous. I don’t say they should use no deal as a tactic. I said taking it off the table is betond stupid. The EU now know that we would have removed that possibility, thus weakening our negotiating power.
Who cares what I think anyway, whatever happens it’s beyond my control anyway. Politicians on all sides are by and large the same type of people, a few exemptions I’m sure.
We have a shite government and a piss poor opposition. I wouldn’t see the point in voting given the current choice I have.

Gth1234 · 20/03/2019 22:35

It's not that the remain/leave campaign were disasters. The remain campaign was at least as bad and disreputable as the leave campaign. The leave campaign was far less bad than the remain one.

It's that the majority of people who voted in the referendum (ie the those of us who voted to leave) are sick and tired of being forced into an organisation different to one we signed up for. ie, a United States of Europe, rather than a trading community. We took the opportunity of rejecting our membership when we had a chance. I am sure we were surprised to win. I believe we would win by even more if we voted again, but I hope to god we don't have to vote again, because a neverendum is not the way to do it.

If repeated voting is the way to do it, then why don't Parliament have another go at the 4 vote majority against leaving with a no-deal, until they get it right. That's a far smaller majority than the leave vote.

Those of us who are a bit older will never forget Mr Steven Thoburn who was (sorry, I don't like cursing) fucking hounded and prosecuted by our government for daring to sell bananas by the pound weight. We still have the pound weight. We buy half a pound of butter. It's just that it's called 227gm now. We also remember the destruction of our fishing communities by rapacious French and Spanish fleets. We remember the loss of our British jobs for British workers to anybody and evertybody other than the British. It's all part of why many of us long to leave this evil community.

And I said again and again, that if our elite leaders really thought we belonged IN the EU, Blair and Brown would have persuaded us that we needed to adopt the Euro, and forced it through when they had their massive majority.

Why have we so little confidence in our own capabilities that we need to prostrate ourselves before the EU.

JediJim · 20/03/2019 22:36

I’m sure there are many benefits to being in the EU, twofingers.
I didn’t say how I voted ,nor do I think anyone cares.

Windowsareforcheaters · 20/03/2019 22:36

So because you can go back two posts you blame all leavers?

No, but the post I referred to illustrated the point.

Leavers have claimed in droves that they researched and knew what they were doing. If this is true they must accept responsibility.

Unless they hadn't really done any research, but that can't be true can it?

Windowsareforcheaters · 20/03/2019 22:41

Can the leavers on this thread make their minds up?

Which is it a Federal Europe or a United States of Europe?

And if you are comparing the EU to the USA, the US is federal with power fully devolved to the states.

You use these terms with no idea of what they mean.

And arguments supporting the nonsense that are imperial measures don't make your arguments anymore credible.

How many other countries in the world use imperial - look it up. We would be a laughing stock if we returned to this antiquated system.

JediJim · 20/03/2019 22:42

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36243296

David Cameron said that leaving the EU could cause a risk of war in Europe. See above link. A pretty disrespectful point to make and absolutely bullocks.
The remain campaign was appalling to.

Gth1234 · 20/03/2019 22:47

@windowsareforcheaters

It doesn't matter what the niceties of the structure is. It's moving one way. We can't vote for a president. States can't leave the USA, and the USE will end up the same.

We have the same chance of winning in the EU as we have of winning Eurovision. The middle Europeans make sure we have no voice.

BoneyBackJefferson · 20/03/2019 22:53

Windowsareforcheaters

I did know what I was voting for. I voted to leave.

I knew in the same way that you voted to remain. To state that you know where the EU is going is frankly bullshit, the EU is evolving and developing in to something, can you tell me what?

Which is it a Federal Europe or a United States of Europe?

You described a federal state as a political body that is devolved from the center, isn't that what the USA is? isn't that what you claim that a federal EU would be? A central body with power given to each state.

Afineexample · 20/03/2019 22:56

The leave campaign was far less bad than the remain one.

This would be funny if it wasn't so bloody depressing.
NEITHER side knew exactly what would happen if we left, no- but the remain side dealt with facts and predictions from people who knew what they were talking about. Leave dealt with fantasy and scaremongering about Turkey and the magic money tree for the NHS.

BoneyBackJefferson · 20/03/2019 23:09

but the remain side dealt with facts and predictions from people who knew what they were talking about.

You might want to go back and look again.

SheWoreBlueVelvet · 20/03/2019 23:33

Not the bloody bus AGAIN. Why is it Remainers call Leavers stupid but appear not to be able to manage a simple comprehension task.
It’s not ‘ a lie’ to say this is how much we give to the EU every week - could we spend it better.
Maybe it’s actually “ only” £250 million. However the sentiment is the same.

twofingerstoEverything · 20/03/2019 23:36

It’s not ‘ a lie’ to say this is how much we give to the EU every week - could we spend it better. Maybe it’s actually “ only” £250 million.
But they wrote £350, so that's the very definition of a lie, isn't it? Simple comprehension, as you might say.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/03/2019 23:36

They felt disenfranchised. They didn't feel they were being listened to. They were constantly told by the government that a lot of the issues they had were down to the EU - the EU was a convenient scapegoat sometimes for the gov

I certainly feel disenfranchised

I certainly feel that oeople who voted remain arent being listened to

Ive been constantly told by the government that i need to get behind brexit otherwise im talking the country down and being unpatriotic

And now apparently its remains fault that this has all gone tits up

I would at this point like to say that its the governments fault that this has all gone tits up...both people who SAY they voted remain or leave

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 20/03/2019 23:37

And the rest, but we are used to Some (just for rufus) remainers trying to rewrite history and making themselves the victims

Oh I hadn't got this far

Thank you boney Grin

Clavinova · 20/03/2019 23:43

Leave dealt with fantasy and scaremongering about Turkey

I don't believe that it was fantasy and scaremongering at the time of the referendum (that Turkey would join the EU) - the attempted coup was 3 weeks after the referendum.

From the EU Commission website:

Meeting of the EU heads of state or government with Turkey, 29/11/2015

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/international-summit/2015/11/29/

The EU and Turkey agreed to re-energise Turkey's accession process to the European Union

High-level dialogue between both parties will be reinforced through more frequent and structured meetings including the organisation of summits twice a year.

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/03/18/eu-turkey-statement/

March 2016 The EU and Turkey reconfirmed their commitment to re-energise the accession process as set out in their joint statement of 29 November 2015.They welcomed the opening of Chapter 17 on 14 December 2015 and decided, as a next step, to open Chapter 33 during the Netherlands presidency.They welcomed that the Commission will put forward a proposal to this effect in April.

Preparatory work for the opening of other Chapters will continue at an accelerated pace

e1y1 · 21/03/2019 00:20

They really had no idea what they were voting for: they just scream "bullying" or "we won get over it" and that's it.

I have never once heard a leaver state what they thought they were voting for or what we would get - simply because they don't know and the country doesn't know.

Remainers have it easier - we know what we were voting for (exactly the same as it is now).

Afaik it was just DC during the 2010 election campaign- throwing around with hapless abandon that he would give the public a vote on leaving the eu and couldn't really go back on it once he was in government.

IMO it was a vote that should never have been given to the people.

Afineexample · 21/03/2019 00:47

A simple Google search in 2016 would have told anybody who wanted the facts that Turkey had no chance of joining the EU. Firstly because of the impossibility of the 35 demands and secondly, and more importantly because the UK (or any other member state) had an absolute veto that it could use if it didn't think Turkey (or any other state) should be a member of the EU

YouBumder · 21/03/2019 00:51

The realities and legalities of leaving should have been investigated as far as possible before the referendum was held.

Exactly! A referendum should only have been held once a deal in principle had been obtained, and on the options on that deal or remain.

I also agree that Cameron and co have to take some of the blame for having no plan in place but so do the leave campaigners Boris, Gove and co.

longwayoff · 21/03/2019 07:06

Leave v Remain campaign. One had Aaron Banks and his dodgy money, Dominic Cummings with 3 million non voters groomed and brainwashed by social media thanks to Facebook and Cambridge Analytica, and The Bus, etc. The other did not. Leave was an extremely successful campaign and so dishonest that it could hardly have failed.

OP posts: