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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think that this was racist?

158 replies

Simmerflew · 19/03/2019 13:50

DH and I visited in laws at the weekend. They'd recorded a rugby match and were watching it. I don't follow rugby, so I'm not sure who else was playing, but I know France was. The camera zoomed in on a French player who was potentially non-white (for the record, I'm not even entirely convinced on this, but he had dark hair and eyes, and a darker complexion than many white people would have). The conversation went as follows:

FIL: I wonder where that guy's from.
DH: Well he's playing for France, so the most likely option is France.
FIL: Well you don't look like that and come from France, usually.
DH: Why do you say that?
FIL: Well, lots of non-French players play for France. They let anyone in. One of their players is called Demba Bamba.
Me: (vaguely recalling hearing this name during a conversation in work) Right, but he's French, isn't he?
FIL: Well not with a name like that.
Me: But this guy on the TV could have been born and raised in France - how do you know he wasn't?
MIL: well, he might have been born and raised there, but looking at him I can tell he's really Arabic.

I didn't want to say too much and the conversation moved on after that, but I felt uncomfortable about it for the rest of the day.

AIBU to think that making trying to make a judgement about this guy by his skin tone (and the other player by his name) is actually racist? I mean, I understand being curious about someone's heritage, but surely bringing up race when it's not relevant does kind of cross a line into racist territory?

OP posts:

saxatablesalt · 20/03/2019 13:18

My point was that observing and acknowledging characteristics of people with different ethnic backgrounds isn't racist.

And I disagree with your point. I maintain that if I'm standing there speaking to you with a London accent, and you ask me where I'm "really" from on the basis of my skin colour, then that, whether well-intentioned or not, comes from a place of racism.

The scenario in the OP is absolutely no different.

JacquesHammer · 20/03/2019 13:19

Oh come on PBo83

Do you really think “They let anyone in” is an insightful discussion into ethnicity?

Original poster

SimmerFlew · 20/03/2019 13:21

No, the opinion was that he was likely to have mixed ancestry. Even then, it's not a judgement on that person, nor is it discriminatory

But it wasn't. My OP clearly states that he asked where the man was from because he didn't believe he could be French. He was even more blatant about the other player who he deemed to have a non-French name. Nobody said anything about mixed ancestry.

OP posts:

Morgan12 · 20/03/2019 13:23

So I'm from Scotland. Let's say I meet someone in the pub this weekend who I don't think looks Scottish and ask them where they are from. Is that racist?

I'm not goading I'm genuinely asking here because I wouldn't consider that to be racist and wouldn't want to offend anyone.

saxatablesalt · 20/03/2019 13:24

So I'm from Scotland. Let's say I meet someone in the pub this weekend who I don't think looks Scottish and ask them where they are from. Is that racist?

If the only reason you'd be asking that is because they aren't white, then yes it is.

aintnothinbutagstring · 20/03/2019 13:24

My DC are mixed, I think the 'who and what are you' is quite normal amongst their generation, in our area, as it's properly diverse. In our local secondary, apparently they have over 25 different languages being spoken.

PBo83 · 20/03/2019 13:26

Do you really think “They let anyone in” is an insightful discussion into ethnicity?

I wasn't defending that comment from the original post to be fair, more following on from the previous discussion.

you sound like part of the problem. You would ask a white guy with an "accent" but a white guy with an accent that was acceptable to you, you wouldn't bother...?

Just as an example, I live in Suffolk but I'm originally from Essex/London and have an accent to suit (which stands out like a sore thumb). I've been asked many times where I'm from (normally when chatting to strangers in the pub). Surely that's no different to asking a Polish/Lithuanian person with a strong accent where they're from is it? It's not meant in a malicious way, quite the opposite in fact.

PBo83 · 20/03/2019 13:30

So I'm from Scotland. Let's say I meet someone in the pub this weekend who I don't think looks Scottish and ask them where they are from. Is that racist?

Not at all (in my opinion). In fact, I spoke to a Scottish guy once in my local and asked where he was from BECAUSE he was obviously Scottish. It turns out that, by insane coincidence, he was from the same tiny village (Ardentinny, nr Dunoon) that my uncle lived and he knew him! Random tangent but, if I hadn't identified that he wasn't English and asked or if he'd given me the "Planet Earth" response then I'd never have known and we wouldn't be friends now.

dreichuplands · 20/03/2019 13:32

I'm Scottish NT haven't lived there for several decades, Imgetnasked where I am from a great deal. I don't think that is racist, although the endless discussion about my accent in front of me as though I am not there can get trying.
DH, who has a nice, clear English accent has never had much sympathy for me, until now. Where we live now his accent gets more picked up and talked about than mine. He has got very tired of it very quickly, along with always being asked where he is from.
He has a lot more sympathy for people who put up with this in the UK regularly.

saxatablesalt · 20/03/2019 13:33

Surely that's no different to asking a Polish/Lithuanian person with a strong accent where they're from is it?

Well no, because judging someone based on their accent is not even close to the same thing as judging someone based on the colour of their skin.

dreichuplands · 20/03/2019 13:33

Some random words in above post.

saxatablesalt · 20/03/2019 13:40

Imgetnasked where I am from a great deal. I don't think that is racist

No it isn't racist, because they are not asking you anything based on your race.

I really don't understand what is so difficult to grasp about this.

Grace212 · 20/03/2019 13:40

PBo83 "Surely that's no different to asking a Polish/Lithuanian person with a strong accent where they're from is it?"

I wouldn't ask anyone where they are "from" tbh. I find it very "othering". I live in a big block of flats. Been here years, seen many people come and go. Have never asked anyone where they are from. They are just my neighbours.

I used to be the sort of person who would regularly get embroiled in random pub chat, but it just never includes "where are you from".

saxatablesalt · 20/03/2019 13:42

I actually find it incredibly worrying that a lot of people on this thread seemingly don't understand the difference between, for instance, asking a white person in London speaking with a Scottish accent where they are from and asking a POC in London speaking with a London accent where they are from.

dreichuplands · 20/03/2019 13:49

I'm not really sure who you are getting wound up by saxa somebody up thread asked if asking a Scot where they are from is racist and Scots have come on the thread and said that this isn't racist (it may get irritating and is othe ring but that is different)

PBo83 · 20/03/2019 13:53

I actually find it incredibly worrying that a lot of people on this thread seemingly don't understand the difference between...

I do understand the difference. My point was in response to someone saying that I 'wouldn't ask a white person where they're from'.

I just had to Google "Othering" as it wasn't a term I'd heard before. The definition being:

view or treat (a person or group of people) as intrinsically different from and alien to oneself.

But that's not the same thing is it? I, like yourself, know people from a large number of different backgrounds and don't treat any of them differently because of it. Doesn't mean I don't know about (some, not all of) their backgrounds because a lot of the time it is just something we've talked about.

WhenWillItAllEnd · 20/03/2019 13:57

I don't think it's racist per se. I define racism quite narrowly though and say it is the belief that a person is inherently inferior on account of their "race".

Would any of the people saying it is racist bat an eyelid at a white Nigerian ? Or wonder where she came from ?

Most people from an ethnic background are usually quite proud of their non European heritage, which is what FiL was presumably getting at. I.em what is his ethnic heritage.

I don't see how that is racist unless you concede french people no longer have an ethnic heritage.

JacquesHammer · 20/03/2019 14:02

My point was in response to someone saying that I 'wouldn't ask a white person where they're from

But you wouldn’t ask a white person where they were from because they’re white. You’re asking them because you’ve gained further knowledge by hearing their accent.

That’s not the same as assuming someone can’t be French because he’s black.

PBo83 · 20/03/2019 14:03

@WhenWillItAllEnd

Agree completely apart where you say that your definition of racism is quite narrow. That's not narrow at all, that IS the definition of racism.

The definition and use of 'racism' (as with a lot of the 'isms') is often expanded well beyond it's TRUE definition. Whether this to be to make a point, to mis-label people or, dare I say it, as a high-horse from which to criticise those with differing opinions.

scatterolight · 20/03/2019 14:15

I think there is a very unsophisticated comprehension of identity in this thread. Identity is obviously more than where you were born.

Identity is made up of a multiplicity of attributes. Some of which will be: legal, ethnic and cultural amongst many others. For many people what they are is legally, culturally and ethnically the same. But increasingly, in our modern era of globalisation and migration, people will have identities made of different facets.

Your in-laws, I'm afraid, seem to have a more nuanced approach to identity than you or your husband. Recognising that this player was legally French they also observed that he was ethnically something else and they had a natural human curiosity about this.

In your effort to be politically correct and see him as ONLY a Frenchman you are denying this man his heritage. Something of which he is no doubt proud. In fact I expect he would be offended by your efforts to pigeon hole him into one, narrow, legal identity while disregarding his clearly alternative heritage.

Both you, and your husband, could do with thinking a bit harder about this issue.

BloodyDisgrace · 20/03/2019 14:19

I think it is racist, but not because of, as you say, "trying to make a judgement about this guy by his skin tone " (as there's nothing wrong with stating the obvious, i.e. someone's skin tone), but because of implying someone looking like that cannot be a French national. It's racist as in the case of people asking a brown-skinned person "where are you from?" and not letting go when they answer "Birmingham". "Noo, but where REALLY are you from?"

I suspect the folks like your PIL resent the fact that foreigners can have equal rights to the citizens, or their descendants can ever be the citizens. The player in question might well not have been a French national, equally he could be and have every right to.

PBo83 · 20/03/2019 14:21

@scatterolight

Brilliantly put. You've managed to sum up what I've said in about a dozen posts in one!

ItWentDownMyHeartHole · 20/03/2019 14:24

scatterolight come off it. The PIL were emphasising their opinion that the player COULDN’T be a Frenchman. Apparently too foreign looking. The racists!

Original poster

SimmerFlew · 20/03/2019 14:26

@scatterolight I think you're stretching it a bit. They never, at any point, recognised that the man was legally French. I also would not deny him his heritage - but I have no idea what his heritage is. I believe the racist aspect of the conversation was when they asserted that the man could not really be French as he looked "Arabic". Even if he is of, say, middle Eastern heritage, that does not mean he cannot truly be French. I don't think that saying that

OP posts:

Original poster

SimmerFlew · 20/03/2019 14:26

Whoops, posted too soon.

I don't think that saying that denies his heritage in any way.

OP posts:

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