To think that this was racist?

[Simmerflew]

DH and I visited in laws at the weekend. They'd recorded a rugby match and were watching it. I don't follow rugby, so I'm not sure who else was playing, but I know France was. The camera zoomed in on a French player who was potentially non-white (for the record, I'm not even entirely convinced on this, but he had dark hair and eyes, and a darker complexion than many white people would have). The conversation went as follows:

FIL: I wonder where that guy's from.
DH: Well he's playing for France, so the most likely option is France.
FIL: Well you don't look like that and come from France, usually.
DH: Why do you say that?
FIL: Well, lots of non-French players play for France. They let anyone in. One of their players is called Demba Bamba.
Me: (vaguely recalling hearing this name during a conversation in work) Right, but he's French, isn't he?
FIL: Well not with a name like that.
Me: But this guy on the TV could have been born and raised in France - how do you know he wasn't?
MIL: well, he might have been born and raised there, but looking at him I can tell he's really Arabic.

I didn't want to say too much and the conversation moved on after that, but I felt uncomfortable about it for the rest of the day.

AIBU to think that making trying to make a judgement about this guy by his skin tone (and the other player by his name) is actually racist? I mean, I understand being curious about someone's heritage, but surely bringing up race when it's not relevant does kind of cross a line into racist territory?

PBo83

the trouble is, usually when I'm asked about my background, it's a way of "othering" - a way of saying "hang on, you can't be British because of the colour of your skin".

I realise that some people might also be just curious, with no prejudice, but there are lots of things you might be curious about with someone. Does that mean you just ask them personal questions? I'd say no. See how general conversation goes, see what they want to talk about.

I knew a woman who had an Irish mother and a Pakistani father - when I knew her (early 20s) her parents were divorced and she had little or no contact with her father or any Pakistani relatives - she simply didn't live in their world at all.

But she looked Pakistani. And it's an area with a large Asian population. So she was forever explaining, often to Pakistani people, than no, she couldn't speak their language, and to everyone, no, she wasn't Pakistani, she was British and that was that.

Incredibly wearying. Culturally speaking she knew/cared/experienced no more about Pakistan than any other country in the world.

My dad is exactly like this. He gets such a bee in his bonnet about anyone playing for a national team who (a) has a name which is not stereotypical of that country or (b) does not have the skin colour/tone he would associate with that country. You can imagine the fallout if both occur! I can't watch any sport with him now for this reason, as it always turns into an argument between us.

Unfortunately we seem to be surrounded by racist family members. This is a genuine recent conversation with FiL

DH: So, I was talking to Dave next door about...
FiL(interrupting): Dave?
DH: Yes, Dave, our neighbour.
FIL: He's not called Dave.

DH: ... Yes, yes, that's his name, but anyway...
FiL: What is he?
DH: What kind of question is that? Do you mean who is he? I've just explained, he lives next door.
FiL: If it's the chap I'm thinking of, he can't be called Dave. What is he?
Me: I still don;t understand the question, FiL, what exactly are you asking us?
FIL: (angrily) Alright, you're going to make me say it! Is he green, pink, purple with yellow spots...? Or is he (hushed tone) black?
Me: He's black, yes.

FiL: Well he can't be called Dave, can he??? And now you're making me sound like a racist for having to ask the question.

Hmm. The thing is, the question didn't need to be asked so for that reason, yes, FiL is racist.

I should not click on these threads. They are so depressing. on what planet can a black man NOT be called Dave

I was at an industry meeting once and a white man in his 70s spotted me and hurried over to ask where I was from. I told him my company name and he waved his hand and said no you- Where are you from. Turned out he was born in Asia and recognised my look from the particular area he had spent his childhood in. I don't consider that racist but the where are you REALLY from can get annoying especially when there is no reason to want to know.

It’s definitely ‘othering’ and racist in my opinion. I have two mixed race dc. Older dc has darker skin, hair and eyes and features typical of his dad’s nationality. Younger dc has paler skin, eyes and hair. Both are British, both the same ‘human’ but you can guess which one gets racist comments based on his skin colour. Fortunately for him, he’s the king of sarcastic comebacks but the gap between the abuse he has to take compared with his brother is shocking.

And for goodness sake don’t let your PILs see the England squad for the Euro 2020 qualifiers. They’ll have proper conniptions

Happens all the time to me - I'm mixed race and have a "foreign" name.

Stranger: where are you from?
Me: London.
Stranger: yeah but where are you originally from?
Me: Hackney.
Stranger: yeah but I mean what are you?
Me: a...human?

Fcking idiots. No excuse, straight up racist and igorant.

Ambereeree that is quite.. creepy. And yes, super annoying when they have no reason to know. I don’t look entirely ‘English’ apparently (I think I do but hey ho), so get asked if I have Middle Eastern/Mediterranean heritage and I’m like sure, let’s go into that really sad event from my family’s history right now, stranger. You just don’t know if that intrusion is going to be particularly welcome.

Saxa may I lend you one of my dc’s lines?

Idiot: where are you from
Dc: here
Idiot: where are you REALLY from though?
Dc: oh I’m from a place where they don’t ask stupid questions. You don’t know it.

Happens all the times sadly, judgements based on the colour of someone's skin. And don't even get me started on the "where are you from?" conversation- I learnt very early on to drag it to the point where I was almost giving away my postcode to shame the person into stopping! And, then when the racist still didn't get it, I'd say "oh you're referring to the colour of my skin! Ah, well my mum's from X and my dad's from Y but I'm born and raised here".

@UtterlyPerfectCartoonGiraffe - hahaha! I'm so going to use that next time!!!

Giraffe Your DC is a genius! Also liked the person who said they're from the moon when they get pestered! Although that must be incredibly annoying.

Possibly irrelevant to the conversation as I'm white, but I was talking to a Maltese lady who came into where I work, and I was talking about my own heritage (I'm a quarter Italian.) She said she though I looked like I had some Mediterranean blood in me and thought I might be part Spanish, which I thought was nice. I like that I'm a mixture of different European places.

A much better way to do it is when I say my name and people say "oh that's lovely, where is that from?".

I don't mind that.

My best friend has a mixed race son. She and her husband were meeting the son's future in-laws who threw out racist remarks really casually during the party. I asked her how her son could put up with such horrible future in-laws and she told me his future MIl told him 'oh don't mind us, we consider you to be an honorary white!'

Fuck everyone tbh who says that racism isn't a problem in society any more.

Fuck everyone tbh who says that racism isn't a problem in society any more.

I agree, racism remains a problem in our society and, whilst I believe we have improved from when racism was more widespread in the 50's & 60's, I doubt it will ever be eradicated fully.

I think we need to agree on the definition of racism though. The dictionary definition is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

In the OP's example I would suggest that the comments didn't meet this definition. In the same way, enquiring about someone's ethnic background may not be polite/welcomed (although some people DO like talking about family history) but it isn't racist by definition*

(*Unless it is being used to support a racist idea/statement)

Someone upthread has reminded me of a conversation I had with my flatmate in uni. I was saying I'd been speaking to someone who was at our uni on Erasmus, and she said "oh, a foreigner. What breed?"

I didn't know how to answer that so obviously racist question!

Then there was another girl who called the Chinese student on our floor "the gook". I'd never heard the phrase before, and I've never heard it since, but it was pretty obvious that it wasn't a term of endearment.

I recently worked with a young man who thought it was funny to do impressions of his Indian deskmate. When his deskmate asked him to stop, this delightful chap tried to explain why what he was doing wasn't racist. Thankfully, the company took a dim view of this.

In the OP's example I would suggest that the comments didn't meet this definition. In the same way, enquiring about someone's ethnic background may not be polite/welcomed (although some people DO like talking about family history) but it isn't racist by definition

Racism is hugely ingrained in society, just as misogyny is. There is an undertone of racism across absolutely everything.

People don't always realise they are prejudiced. It doesn't mean they are not.

If you would not question white person about their ethnic background, why would you question a POC?

@PBo83 wouldn't you say that having a preconceived, rigid idea of what a French person must look like meets the definition of prejudice?

@SimmerFlew

wouldn't you say that having a preconceived, rigid idea of what a French person must look like meets the definition of prejudice?

No I wouldn't say that. Prejudice is to form an opinion on someone not based on evidence.

• If someone has characteristics not typical of the indigenous population of that country then this shows evidence that there is likely to be mixed-heritage in their family history.

• Showing an interest (or pondering) in someone's ethnic background is not casting an opinion on them as a person.

Racism is hugely ingrained in society, just as misogyny is. There is an undertone of racism across absolutely everything.

Firstly, there has been no talk of misogyny (and it's not necessary to bring it into every conversation). Secondly...bollocks, there is not an undertone of racism across ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, that's ridiculous hyperbole.

People don't always realise they are prejudiced. It doesn't mean they are not.

I agree with the principle of unconscious bias but it's not something that can be controlled. Judgement should be made on an individuals actions and behaviour towards people rather that what is, potentially, happening in their subconscious.

If you would not question white person about their ethnic background, why would you question a POC?

It's not a case of skin colour though is it? It's about having characteristics that are not typical of that country's demographic. If I was speaking to a white guy in the pub who has clearly got a strong accent then I may ask where he's from. This isn't racist or demonstrating prejudice but showing interest in their background (and if they don't want to talk about it then they surely won't).

I don't know why we have to assume that noticing our differences and talking about them is immediately assumed to be racist.

I don't know why we have to assume that noticing our differences and talking about them is immediately assumed to be racist.

I don't know why so many people (and let's face it, mostly white people) are so desparate to try and dismiss the feelings of POC who have experienced prejudice, whether it was intended or not.

No I wouldn't say that. Prejudice is to form an opinion on someone not based on evidence

And here the opinion was "he's not French", surely.

I don't know why so many people (and let's face it, mostly white people) are so desparate to try and dismiss the feelings of POC who have experienced prejudice, whether it was intended or not.

Where was I dismissing people who have experienced prejudice? I never denied that prejudice and racism exist and accept that, sadly, it does (although I believe to a lesser extent than it has historically, which is good). My point was that observing and acknowledging characteristics of people with different ethnic backgrounds isn't racist.

And here the opinion was "he's not French", surely.

No, the opinion was that he was likely to have mixed ancestry. Even then, it's not a judgement on that person, nor is it discriminatory.

Giraffe love that but not so easy in work type situations.

PBo83 - you sound like part of the problem. You would ask a white guy with an "accent" but a white guy with an accent that was acceptable to you, you wouldn't bother...?

yes, the OP FIL deciding the guy couldn't be French is forming an opinion not based on evidence.

I've lost count of the times people have said to me "oh I'm just curious". Well maybe I'm curious how much money you have in the bank but I'm not going to ask you!