Would your DH behave in this way? AIBU (I don’t think so).

[alarmbell]

I really don’t mind people being honest about this scenario as sometimes I feel like I’m going mad. So yesterday, the plan was we were flying out at 6.30 (short haul flight) just for the weekend to attend an event held by one of DH’s friends. This meant picking up all 4 DC from their various schools at 3.40 / 4pm and just going straight to the airport. So we needed to be packed by 3pm.

In the morning, DH seemed to be working from home so he shut himself away in his office. I was packing, etc. He Whatsapped me to ask for coffee and something to eat at about 9.30 and and when I went in I asked him what did he want packing. He said he was too busy to think, so I asked him to put his stuff out in the bed because I had no idea whether to pack more formal stuff or if we needed outward bound gear etc. He was basically on the phone so I just left him to it because I could see he wasn’t going to answer. Then I had to go out for a blood test and pick up a few things.

I was feeling stressed while out because we had a pet sitter coming and I was aware I needed to get her bed ready and clean the house because the cleaner has been ill this last week. Also I was feeling a bit dizzy after the blood test and am generally shattered these days as it is. I hoped DH might have a least done something towards getting ready by the time so got back at 12.

What he was doing was ruining the garden. I have no idea why he felt the need to go out there when there was obviously stuff to do to get ready for a trip he had organised. He was hacking down trees with a chainsaw and then sawing all the wood into smaller pieces to fit them in the bins and then wheeling the bins through the house with all associated mud and mess. For what reason I don’t know.

At these times I feel like I can’t say anything to him because tbh, worlds fail me. Also he will say I’m being argumentative. So I got everyone packed, cleaned the house inc extra mud traipsed everywhere. Then he got in a mood because I told him not to come in the house with shoes on. So eventually we left to get the kids from various schools and he didn’t even ask what I’d packed for him. En route it was high stress again because of some business deal and he was talking on speaker phone most of the way so nobody else could talk, as well as driving very aggressively.

So here we are and I feel shattered today, although he in a great mood and the life and soul of proceedings. AIBU to think most DH’s wouid see what obviously needs to be done when you’re going away, even for just a weekend, and naturally get involved without being asked - rather than creating unnecessary mess and chaos instead?

He’s a fifth child. Let him get his own coffee and if he can’t get dressed and pack himself he’s useless.

And looking to apply ADHD or ASD! He's abusive and a bully - end of. However even if he DID have one of these conditions - so what? He's still being an abusive bully

^This

I am so sorry that he has treated you this badly for so long. I know you think it's not THAT bad because he's stressed/busy/not physically abusive/had a bad childhood/just doesn't understand/etc, but really it is. It would not be acceptable to treat a paid PA like this let alone someone you're supposed to love.

I am glad you are finding therapy useful but a few of the things you've said about it make me worry that you think the problems here lie with you. The main issue here is that he thinks you don't matter as much as he does, and that you've taught yourself over the years to agree with him. Both of you put him first. You can change how you approach that but you can't change how he does except by disagreeing with him, saying 'no' to him, and refusing to follow every single one of his orders, and that must feel unthinkable right now.

Therapy can help you change how you feel about the situation and can help you with tools and plans to start saying "no" to him. You will still need to take that big terrifying step of saying: no actually, he's wrong about this. I do matter. He is not more important than I am. Start by saying it to yourself inside your head. Ask yourself why you don't believe it.

@NoNewsisGood - really interesting post.

I recognise some of the patterns of struggling with executive function you mention in colleagues who are neuro-diverse e.g.ASD, ADHD, & Dyslexia. Often they are very capable people who hit career buffers when the demands being made on them outstrip their cognitive ‘bandwidth’ to work & process at speed & at length. Most people have useful coping strategies for dealing with short periods of stress, but over time, without resolution of the pressure & demands, these strategies become less useful to the point of being a hindrance, unless new ways to work or new work can be found. Left unresolved these stressors can lead to health problems & possible breakdown. It is at this point that some people are assessed by psychologists & found to have underlying Dyslexia/ASD or such like conditions which had been self-managed.

It's almost like a dare isn't it? "Because of your comments about me packing and doing one single thing for myself, I'm going to act crazy slashing at trees with a chainsaw in such an erratic manner you not only fear for the trees and shrubs but for me possibly injuring myself (oooh, the drama, the tension) whilst make a shocking mess I know will upset her whilst doing something that I KNOW is not what is needed right at this moment, overly and right in her face - you just DARE to say something alarm, go on, I dare you".

This really hit home- op he's making your life far more difficult and is disrespecting you rather than doing everything 'for you '.

How can you tell when someone is awkward as opposed to abusive? Where do you draw the line? I really don’t want to sound as if I’m making excuses for myself or him, but I know plenty of women - friends of mine - who also feel stressed by their husbands or feel there’s things they can’t say. Some have husbands who shout or use abusive language or swear at their wife or kids when they’re in a bad mood - DH has never done this. I have friends whose husbands make them feel insecure about their weight or the way they look. Again DH never does anything like this. Nor does he look at other women or make me insecure in that sense. I even know women whose marriages have continued after affairs, or the DH’s using strippers etc. Again, I do know I couldn’t continue after something like that, yet plenty do. Some DHs are financially controlling - again I have no experience of this. I know it’s not a race to the bottom and I know people will say I’m deflecting and making excuses. Maybe I am. I think DH is controlling in particular ways and I am recognising this increasingly. I’m not staying with him for the money as some have suggested; I was with him when he started out and it’s nothing to do with that. He expects me to carry his stress and facilitate him - domestically and psychologically. This is the problem. I think my boundaries may be skewed because of childhood experiences, but so can’t be sure. Someone asked if I feel “lesser” than him and to be absolutely honest I don’t know if it’s that or if I feel responsible for him. This is what I’m working on. I apologise if I’m annoying people but it’s hard to get the wider situation across sometimes.

I must say your friends appear to have very low expectations of how a DH should behave. You don't have to set your standards by reference to others, anyway. I suspect there is a lot of financial imbalance in these relationships where if you are the non earning partner you have to suck up poor behaviour or face significant lifestyle consequences?

He expects me to carry his stress and facilitate him - domestically and psychologically.

Because that’s what you’ve always done. That doesn’t make it ok or normal.

Yes I have always done that and I can’t deny it. I’m not scared to leave him because of financial consequences at all. I know I’d be ok on that level and that has nothing to do with it. It’s more my whole adult life has been with him and he’s the father if my children. I committed to him for better or worse. He knows about my history and I don’t talk to friends about that ever. He supports me in that sense and I rely on him. One thing I can say is that he’s 100% honest and he’s never lied to me ever.

@alarmbell This might help - from the Relate website:

“But the point about whether the behaviour is abusive, is how it makes you feel. If your partner’s behaviour makes you feel small, controlled or as if you’re unable to talk about what’s wrong, it’s abusive. If you feel like your partner is stopping you from being able to express yourself, it’s abusive. If you feel you have to change your actions to accommodate your partner’s behaviour, it’s abusive.”

You sound so much like me when I was under my Mother’s spell.

OP I'm probably going to get flamed for this. Clearly your DH is very successful in his professional life and that brings a lot of stress for him. What you do is provide support for him with organising/present buying/keeping house organised etc etc. He doesn't sound abusive to me but he does sound like someone who is at risk of burning himself out. I think that maybe your feelings towards him are because either consciously or subconsciously you know he's at risk of this. You just want him to stop and take time out for you and your family.
He really would benefit from some therapy to make him realise that the successful life he's building for his family will be worth nothing if he drops dead of a heart attack.
Is there any family member or friend you know he respects who could have that conversation with him?

How can you tell when someone is awkward as opposed to abusive?
I'm not sure it matters, or if there has to be a difference. Someone may not have the intent to be abusive, yet their behaviour still is. If someone is "awkward" to the extent you're walking on eggshells around them and rearranging your entire life and behaviour to meet their needs, debating whether its awkwardness or abuse is just semantics. The effect on you is exactly the same.

I certainly think you need to stop doing things like packing for him, or responding to WhatsApp messages ordering food and drinks. See where that leads.

You aren't his waitress or his servant, and him expecting you to be is disrespectful.

Nor is it entirely your job to keep the house in order. If he makes a mess he should tidy up after himself etc.

It does not really matter whether you call it abuse or not. A relationship should improve your life. You said yourself you feel like it is a break when he is away.

Yes he is a workaholic and unable to set his own boundaries around this. He is not the only one and he surrounds himself with others who are similar so it becomes a self-perpetuating norm. He has never had just one job ever. For instance at the moment he’s involved with about 10 companies in top of his main one. I can’t get him to stop. If I tell him to relax directly he gets agitated, su this is why I try and keep in top if all the home stuff so he’s more inclined to relax. I am worried that he might have a breakdown. My therapist says I carry the burden for him and he needs me in this role and as, such, I’m also at the risk of a breakdown. I don’t need him to do housework generally. I’m at home and if I needed more help I’d tend ask the cleaner rather than him. He has effectively opted out of this though which I realise is not ideal. He’s home more these days so the fact he does nothing is more apparent I guess, but there were years when he was away a lot so this is how the pattern developed. I get very frustrated sometimes that he just doesn’t see obvious things and that was what this thread was about because I can’t get my head around it. Another of my “calming him down” strategies was making an effort with things like cooking for the family because he does appreciate this. He’s from a background where men don’t really cook much. It’s no excuse, I know that, but if you’re at family gatherings it’s very apparent and normal for there to be a distinction and that’s where he’s coming from. Of course nothing is set in stone, but he’s influenced to some extent by this. I think if he’s been the time who was home by say 5.30 every day, things might have evolved differently. Or if I was working. His father was paranoid schizophrenic and very ill from when DH was about 7. I worry about his mental health because it runs in the family. I try and keep things as stable as I can for the kids.

There are many forms of abuse. You listed a few yourself, op. Just because he isn't doing those other things does not mean he is not abusive.

Do you know any women who don’t feel stressed by their husbands or whose husbands dont shout and swear or make them feel insecure about their looks and don’t cheat on them with strippers etc?

It sounds like you and your female friends are used to a very low level of men.

Xpost with OP.

If he making choices for himself that are making him stressed and challenging his mental and physical health - if you can’t get him to listen, rationalise, change then you’re not obliged to facilitate it.

It’s like tying yourself to a rollercoaster and passively accepting your lot.

Following on from my earlier post, I had intend to say that many colleagues I knew who had adult diagnosis of Dyslexia/ASD were prompted, rather than by stress or breakdown, to be assessed by their children being diagnosed whilst in the education system.

Their children’s assessment offered them insights & ‘Aha’ moments into their own experiences, & this led them on to full psychological assessments. So much about executive & other aspects of cognitive function fell into place for them.

OP, you mentioned your daughter being assessed for Asperger. Have you plans to explore other neuro-diverse assessments? I do not intend to open up another thread or subject, but is this an opportunity to explore such matters with your OH.

Nothing excuses him being an arse, but there may be other stuff going on.

Given the parlous state of his peers ‘s health & wellbeing, does he reflect upon how they got to be that way, their motivation & future prospects ? I assume that many of them were doing it all for their families, but it is as much HOW you do it as much as what is done.

It is odd to have someone pack for you. He is expecting this because you always do it for him. If you were less perfect, he would learn how to do it himself. It might benefit him to be more independent and to have more mundane things to do. In fact it sounds like he needs this - hence the chainsaw and chopping wood.

He only has room to be this kind of stressy workaholic because he has got you convinced your job is to rush through life two paces ahead of him, making his path as comfortable as possible.

Just from the example you have in your OP: he doesn’t just want you to pack for him for a holiday, he wants you to do all the thinking about what he wants packing, around responding to his WhatsApped orders for food. And then when you need to leave for a medical appointment, he doesn’t just want to not do any of the packing himself, he wants to impulsively decide on a time-consuming messy garden activity that doesn’t need doing and involves him tracking mud all through the house - and have you stand by quietly not asking him wtf he was thinking of. On the way to the airport, he wants to make a conference call and he wants to drive, but instead of picking one like the rest of us mortals would do he decides unilaterally he’ll do both together and have the phone on speaker so you all have to sit there in silence. Which you do.

He is making these choices. He is not even thinking about what him making these choices means for you, because he is so used to the idea that he’s vastly more important than you and anything you might want or think or feel. He doesn’t need to hit you or cheat on you to be treating you badly.

Oh god, why are you doing all this for him?
I'd never so much as pick up a sock for my DP
Sorry but you're acting like a doormat

Tatiana and Any F - I do know women who have “normal” relationships yes, though you can never know what goes on behind closed doors. I know myself I could never be with a man who was nasty or cruel. If he laid a finger on me once, that would be the end. No doubts about that whatsoever. Or if he had an affair or made me feel as if I couldn’t trust him. I suspect a lot of people put up with a lot of things, they just don’t necessarily talk about it in real life.

UniversalAunt - I don’t think he’s Aspegers or on the autistic spectrum. He’s not prone to self-reflection though, he exists very “externally” if that makes sense. He always needs to be doing something.

I know myself I could never be with a man who was nasty or cruel.
Oh, OP. You have some serious cognitive dissonance going on because from everything you've said, your husband is nasty and cruel. It just happens to manifest in a different way to name-calling, so it's more subtle. He's still a bully. He still WhatsApps his lunch order, his "don't buy chicken order", controls everything, has you on eggshells. He doesn't have to yell or call you a name or insult you to be nasty and cruel. It was cruel to do the tree chainsawing, mud-tracking mania right before you needed to leave. It made a joke of all your efforts.

In some ways your reasoning reminds me of a terrible boyfriend who, after I dumped him, said, "Why? I've never hit anyone and I've never raped anyone". That was his bar: he didn't see that I wanted, needed and deserved more than, y'know, the very basics of human decency and legality. Obviously different situations, but the bar you've set yourself in your relationship is "He doesn't hit me or call me names." Trust me when I say that there is a much, much higher bar for behaviour from a romantic partner!