To think that things were different before 2007?

[Haarrieett]

Just happened to see that the new Madeleine McCann documentary is trending on twitter - I clicked on it and saw that hundreds of people were saying things along the lines of "Who would leave their children alone in a foreign country?"

I was slightly at this because dh and I honestly used to do this all the time. My dc are a few years older than Madeleine - when we went on holiday to resorts in places like Greece and Spain, we would often leave them alone in a hotel room (often with a window/patio door open for fresh air) while we went out for dinner.

Obviously, after Madeleine went missing we never did it again, but I do recall it being pretty common behaviour at least among our friends.

Did anyone else used to do this in the pre-MM era?

I would have been worried about them getting out of bed and being scared or there being a fire.

think people are a lot more likely to judge gobby, sun burned overweight northerners doing what they did than they are a group of middle class doctors

YY^^

There was a case reported last year, a Scottish couple in Majorca, a mother and a step father. All the reports hinted that they were a bit oiky and the resort was downmarket, they went to the bar and left a 4 and 11yo alone and they were arrested and their kids taken into care.

Agree

It's different leaving an awake, aware child to go to a shop or similar - I would definitely leave DS1 (age 10) to do this but I would never ever leave him asleep. I remember the first time my mum went out in the evening and left us alone, I think we were 17 and 13 and I felt anxious even though she wasn't out late and it was fine.

I'm a working class single mum. I'd have been crucified if I did what they did.

I also don't think you should ever leave children without making them aware they will be alone and making sure they are OK with that. Of course that is meaningless for a just-turned-four year old, they can't understand the responsibility placed on them even if they were aware.

No, things haven't changed at all. Most people didn't leave her children alone in hotel rooms in 2007 which is why they were so heavily criticised for it. My parents didn't do it in the 70s either.

The McCann's made a terrible mistake, and they have to live with that for the rest of their lives.

It's so easy to say I wouldn't have done this or that, all of that group did the same and from that documentary they did it every night. Not saying that's right but when you're on holiday you are much more relaxed etc.

I think pre Madeline going missing parents maybe we're a bit more relaxed, we lost our 3yo once for 5 mins, and it was horrific just a case of taking eyes off for a few seconds, our daughter also went missing for a short while on the south bank in London, she was 9 but luckily was sensible enough to find someone who got her to stand still until we found her. Both times the feeling is sickness and fear. I would say I am a good parent who intentionally wouldn't put our children at risk, but sometimes things happen.

I can not imagine what those parents go through on a daily basis, I think based on that documentary the Portuguese police were awful.

But yes OP I do think it is a very different world now to 10 years ago.

itbemay1, of course things can happen. No one can watch their child 24 hours a day BUT taking your eyes off a child is nothing like knowingly leaving 3 very young children alone in a strange place. At home would be bad but in a strange place in another country is even worse.

I am sure most of us have woken in the night when staying away from home and had that initial "where am I". Can you imagine a young child doing that and then calling out for mum or dad (who don't come).

I really cannot believe that has ever been normal for the majority of parents. Also it seems the doors were unlocked! They are intelligent people so not stupid but very very selfish

I had 3 DC by 2007, youngest two were 5 at that time. Never would have crossed my mind to ever leave them alone, out of earshot, and we spent every summer travelling across Europe.

My mother was extremely abusive and dysfunctional and even she never left us alone at those ages.

I think you really have to be a certain type of person to think this is OK even in the 'olden' times.

It does seem very odd that people are refusing to believe that listening services were a “thing”, a widely used thing and a selling point for many hotels and holiday camps. When

Leaving older children home alone for half an hour while you pop to the shop is completely different to leaving toddlers asleep in a foreign country alone WITH THE DOOR OPEN.

I think that is the part I was most baffled by, the door being left not only unlocked but ajar . Who on Earth would do that? Everyone I know would lock the door purely to protect their belongings never mind their three small children.

I find the whole situation utterly baffling. If they were working class they definitely would have been crucified by the media for this.

But some still offer this service bertrand. But it doesn’t mean they were widely used / considered and acceptable option by the majority of parents before or after 2007.

They may have been a thing, but not something most people thought were a good idea in recent memory. Maybe in the 70s or something, when the world really was quite different. I only know that my parents didn’t do it that I remember and, when asked about it, said they never did, which I believe. They were also quite shocked / disapproving when they heard that’s what had happened.

Hope not to out myself here, but my parents were a nurse and a consultant surgeon, so probably a similar set to this. They didn’t think when it happened “oh god we did that all the time”. It was “no, we never did that with you”.

People don’t have to accept that it was ‘the done thing’ in 2006, which I don’t btw. Just because it was done by some, does not mean it was the norm or ‘the done thing’ for most.

BertrandRussell, I know that holiday camps had listening services but I don't know of anyone that used them. Obviously some people did but my parents didn't, my aunts and uncles didn't.

I think, as another poster said, only a certain type of person ever used those sorts of services or left young children alone.

I was born in the 50's and also was never left outside a shop in my pram something which a lot of posters seem to think was very common

And the question is was it different before 2007. I would say not. People did it then, they do it now. Hotels offered it then, they offer it now.

I think if we went further back to the 70s or something then yes, I imagine things were very different. I don’t accept that what happened to MM in 2007 changed everything though. I think it was already quite an unusual choice.

I think that is the part I was most baffled by, the door being left not only unlocked but ajar

Mine at that age would be off up the road and running along the beach or jumping in any pool they came across if there was an open door.

I have done it twice, with one child each time. Once in 2005 Ds was 11m in a cot, in a hotel room, we were in the resturant with a baby monitor. I wasnt brilliantly comfortable although my biggest fear was fire. ,
In 2013 Dd aged 6 again in a hotel with a "listening service". We were in the resturant with friends (40th birthday). Other than those 2 times, we have always gone self catering or taken them with us.

I was left with my sister asleep at Butlins, with a 'listening service'.

I have always been shocked that the McCanns left their babies, as let's be honest that's what they were, in an unlocked room, in a foreign country, out of ear shot and eye line. I don't think it is at all comparable to the listening services etc that people have described, although I wouldn't personally use them.

We travel abroad with the kids a couple of times a year, they come with us wherever we go, they'd have a late night and fall asleep in their buggy, or often on a chair with their head on my lap as bigger toddlers.

I haven’t read the whole thread, but in my experience my children ( who were good sleepers at home) would often be unsettled going to bed on holiday - and we stay at the same place every year. When they were toddlers it would often take ages to settle them and I remember one night my DH and I were going to go out to dinner with my mum babysitting, but DD2 obviously picked up on it and would not settle without me, I can’t remember if we went out or not in the end.

I find it interesting that’s far as we know, all the children in that group were all settled early and asleep every night without any interruptions!

I'm a working class single mum. I'd have been crucified if I did what they did.

It’s ironic isn’t it? People who genuinely couldn’t afford childcare or have no partner/family/friends to help would be castigated the most for it but those who really had lots of options available get the easiest ride.

I find it bizarre that pps are showboating about their superior parenting by telling how their children slept in their buggy or, a nearby chair while they enjoyed their night out.
I find it even more bizarre that this is on MN, where normally the merest hint of not putting your child first at all times is roundly criticised.

I guess everyone has different priorities though and there are infinite ways you could deal with toddler holidays.

• go out all together early and put toddler(s) to bed at fairly normal time and one or both parents stay in room

-go out together and toddler stays up later tha normal -go out with toddler in pushchair and stay out later, hoping they will sleep in buggy. -use a creche or listening service -take turns with friends/family to babysit kids -put kids to bed at normal time and go out with adults, checking kids at intervals. Everyone will have different ideas of whats acceptable.

Our parents never ever left us. I remember their disbelief when it came out the McCanns had.

I just can't understand it. Surely you go on holiday with your family to spend it with your family. And when you need a break, you make the appropriate provisions. They aren't cats.

Does anyone think that madeleine might have just woken up, wandered out of the unlocked door to go looking for her parents..... and then been abducted?

Seems so much more likely than someone taking her from her bed.

Does anyone think that madeleine might have just woken up, wandered out of the unlocked door to go looking for her parents..... and then been abducted?

I think it's more likely that she had some kind of accident just as Ben Needham did. All the speculation and finger pointing at her parents and others is futile, what happened, happened.