To think that things were different before 2007?

[Haarrieett]

Just happened to see that the new Madeleine McCann documentary is trending on twitter - I clicked on it and saw that hundreds of people were saying things along the lines of "Who would leave their children alone in a foreign country?"

I was slightly at this because dh and I honestly used to do this all the time. My dc are a few years older than Madeleine - when we went on holiday to resorts in places like Greece and Spain, we would often leave them alone in a hotel room (often with a window/patio door open for fresh air) while we went out for dinner.

Obviously, after Madeleine went missing we never did it again, but I do recall it being pretty common behaviour at least among our friends.

Did anyone else used to do this in the pre-MM era?

The way you put that is really uncharitable cath, although I partly agree with your point. Today’s parents in the uk are under a lot of pressure to toe the line on sleep training, weaning, feeding, screen time, you name it. I don’t know it there was as much peer pressure in the past. I actually doubt it, as social media wasn’t around and it probably wasn’t so tribal.

I did all the ‘right’ stuff, as in I followed the guidelines and breast fed, no cry it out etc etc. I don’t honestly know how much of a difference any of it made, but at the time I was doing it, it felt like the most important thing in the world.

I am a bit wiser these days I think, but I still wouldn’t leave a young child alone in a hotel room. Whether I would have held a different view if I’d had children before 2007 I obviously can’t say for sure, but I really doubt I would, seeing as my own mum who had her last child in the mid 80s said they wouldn’t have considered it. There is a level for most people and personally this isn’t something which would come naturally to me.

Different to things like car seats, where I wouldn’t have a clue unless I read the guidelines. I have a natural instinct that would mean I’d rather not leave my very young children alone for long.

That’s not to say I think the mccanns were ‘bad parents’ for doing it. I bet many people did it and got away with it, even if it wasn’t the norm.

I have just looked at the other thread on my UnspiritualHome and you are on there, making the same points on that one as you are on this one. Why are you doing that?

It's an open forum people can make whatever points they like no matter how cliche they seem to you, who clearly frequents these threads more than me.

As I said earlier I was in my early 20s, single and childless when this happened and didn't really pay much attention. This is the first time I have been on mm thread as I didn't realise it was a mm thread when I opened it. Generally I just shrug and say we'll never know and what is the point in raking it over. But looking at this thread made me realise how little time the McCann's spent with their children on that holiday for the very first time.

I don't know why I'm posting personally I've had very little sleep as I'm heavily pregnant with an ill toddler and should be trying to sleep now (while toddler is downstairs with his dad) instead of spending ages on mn replying to you.

Maybe I'm being smug or thinking that I'm perfect. I don't know, I'm going to try and have a nap now. No hard feelings.

There were 4 of us, never left on holiday. We used to be left at home when my sister was 14 and 1 was 7 (oldest and youngest) so they could get shopping/walk the dogs, but that was it. On holidays we got to stay up late, and we were kids in the 70s-90s.

UnspiritualHome

I think it’s got a bit repetitive on both sides, as most aibu threads end up tbh. The reason I’ve said I wouldn’t do it is because the op suggested 2007 changed people’s behaviour significantly so that leaving children alone is no longer acceptable. I disagree and think that it actually was not the done thing in my family or afaik friends’ families. My mum said as much when MM disappeared. My mum is dead now, so I can’t really pin her down on it, but I believed her at the time as she was pretty easy going and non competitive.

More posters have come on to say “why would you say that? Is it because you want to Lord it over the mccanns? Is it magical thinking”?

In response, I have then reiterated my point and disagreed with the subsequent posts criticising the initial responses. It’s just how a debate sometimes goes and people do have to repeat themselves a bit, when not everyone agrees. I’ve actually found the parts I’ve participated in quite enlightening. I you don’t like how the conversation is going, you can report, or... you know... go to the other place.

coffeeismyspinach, Well, if I wanted to start a judgemental thread that would garner hundreds of 'OMG neglectful' responses, I'd probably post as the OP did. I mean, another MM thread. How useful.

Would I have done what the MM parents did? Possibly not. But then again, I know that I've taken my eyes off my kids on occasions - and nothing's happened. I've had 'the fear', most honest parents have. I just can't bring myself to berate grief-stricken parents who have to live with their decision every single day of their lives.

I can't imagine why so many posters enjoy themselves so much doing exactly that. They achieve nothing of use. They're just bolstering themselves by putting others down. That's a bit pathetic and is harmful. Mumsnet has become very much a place to do this and if the threads are being zapped then great. I wish it were faster.

This is a horrible thread and, if some posters aren't liking these comments of disapproval of their thigh-rubbing comments then to paraphrase back at them - don't read them/post somewhere else. This isn't your playground.

Most people paid for the listening service or used the night crèche/hotel nanny service. They are wealthy professionals who should have paid ffs.

(My kids are born 2001-2006)

I find it strange that the big group didn't go out in 2 smaller groups- one group could have gone out say 6-9 while the other 9-12. A person from the other group could have stayed with a kid. Or they could have takeaway. Or a child could sleep in a different family's room so that the couple could go out together.

Most children who go to f/t nursery because the parents work but when they go on holiday the parents look after their children and get to know them and play with them.

Are you seriously saying that working parents don't know their children until they go on holiday with them?! Do you live in a land without weekends or evenings?

I agree with you cathf that people are unfairly judgemental of previous generations of parents acting without knowledge we now have - but I disagree that this is new, I think it's always been the case. Every generation thinks their parents got it wrong, and that their children have gone off the rails.

I also think that there's stubbornness on both sides - people don't acknowledge that people in the past were doing their best with the knowledge they had, but people also don't acknowledge that we do learn new things over time, so however you parented your own children isn't objectively 'the best'. See the many people who insist that it must have been ok that their children slept on their fronts because 'they were fine' - yes, but the point is that many other children weren't, and we know better now. Of course the same will be true of current parenting - we'll learn new things that will change practices.

I see MM as a case of "there but for the grace of God go I."

We used to go on flotilla holidays in Turkey (would have been in early 2002, pre-MM), and would leave our small dc on our small yacht sleeping in their cabins while we ate with the other adults in a restaurant on the harbour a few minutes away.

One night dd1 appeared at the restaurant in her pyjamas and when we asked how she got off the boat, she told us that "a man helped me." That man clearly wasn't a child abductor and was a good person, but if he hadn't been then we too could have ended up in the same situation, with thousands of anonymous people on the internet blaming us for our child's disappearance.

*2000s

So to answer the OP's question - yes. It was certainly normal behaviour among our social circle & on the sort of holidays we went on before Madeleine's disappearance.

I'm not saying it was right, just that it happened.

“I see MM as a case of "there but for the grace of God go I.“

Honestly? I think MM’s parents should look at you and think “There but for the most indescribably unlikely, unprecedented piece of bad luck go we”

I don’t think children should be left alone in hotel rooms because I hate the thought of them waking up alone. The possibility of abduction was,and is, so vanishingly tiny that it’s barely worth thinking about.

But then again, I know that I've taken my eyes off my kids on occasions - and nothing's happened. I've had 'the fear',

Christ yes

Everyone makes huge mistakes in parenting and its fairly rare for anything to happen

Lost ds2 twice one time on weymouth beach when he was 2/3...think it was 2

In effect he was behind my chair probably a bit disoriented and a woman came along thinking he was lost and took him to lost children

She was obviously being helpful but those 20/30 minutes were the longest of my entire life

Lania790, I have a similar experience which still makes me feel sick 35 years later. In the early 80’s when I had a baby and a toddler we went to a small holiday camp with lots of friends. There was a “ baby patrol” ie rota of parents who all knew each other walked round once an hour to check for crying whilst we were in the lounge area nearby.
One evening about 10pm my 2 and a half year old appeared in his pyjamas at the Lounge door, having woken up, managed to open the door, walk past an open swimming pool in the dark and make his way to the lounge.
I bitterly regret the decision I made that night and it changed my outlook on things like that permanently. The outcome could have been so tragically different.

I personally don’t regard it as an accident or unlucky but as a complete wrong judgement on my part.

Lania

Surely it would've been your fault had DC disappeared though? Leaving them on a boat is ridiculous

I do think one thing that's changed is the extent to which it's mainstream to think a baby or toddler crying on their own for an hour plus is ok - I know not everyone thought that a generation ago (my mother didn't, Bertrand clearly didn't), but I think it would be a tiny number who do now (or maybe I have a very biased view from the unrepresentative sample of parents I know?)

Watched episode 3 last night. I'm not surprised that the parents didn't want the documentary going out as it mostly points the finger at them. Not sure what to think now.

I have lost both dd and ds at one time or another. (They both ran off and hid in the racks of clothes in Primark)

Otherwise apart from at nursery or when they were asleep I really couldn’t afford to take my eyes off them.

Every time I did they either ended up falling down stairs, running off, falling off the windowsill or once at swimming as I was adjusting dds costume Ds (couldn’t swim and didn’t have any arm bands or any floatation device on him) made a bolt for the water and jumped in the pool.
He was only little so every bit of the pool was the deep end to him.

I ran after him and jumped in and fished him out. Just got myself and ds out and I look round to see Dd at the other end of the pool. Dd jumped in so had to run and jump in after her.

So stressful. When I say I didn’t take my eyes off them it is not a boast. It was a necessity

Lania I think leaving your kids alone on a boat, pre MM or not, is incredibly irresponsible but maybe that's just me 🤷🏼‍♀️

Ginger1982

I'm not defending it. I'm just saying that I understand why the McCanns did what they did.

They were in a group all doing the same thing which must have normalised it, as it did for us. And it was the sort of holiday where everybody was from the same background - British, middle-class, in professional occupations. So if they're all ok with leaving their kids, why wouldn't you leave yours?

Our brains have ways of rationalising things and skirting over tiny risks - so regarding leaving small children on a boat, our thinking was that dd2 was too tiny to climb up the ladder and get onto the deck herself, and dd1 was sufficiently sensible and familiar enough with boats & water to know not to be silly & risk falling in. The thought of abduction hadn't even crossed our minds.

If the McCanns had been underclass supermarket-worker tatooed Geordies in Benidorm drinking lager and eating all day breakfasts rather than doctors having wine and tapas, would people be as understanding?

D'ya know, Ginger, you could do with a dose of 'the fear' yourself. Lania didn't ask for your opinion of her parenting. You sound so utterly smug and entitled to judge.

Not really in the spirit, is it?

Late 40s and no, our parents never left us.

I was a bit when the MM news broke to be honest.