To think that things were different before 2007?

[Haarrieett]

Just happened to see that the new Madeleine McCann documentary is trending on twitter - I clicked on it and saw that hundreds of people were saying things along the lines of "Who would leave their children alone in a foreign country?"

I was slightly at this because dh and I honestly used to do this all the time. My dc are a few years older than Madeleine - when we went on holiday to resorts in places like Greece and Spain, we would often leave them alone in a hotel room (often with a window/patio door open for fresh air) while we went out for dinner.

Obviously, after Madeleine went missing we never did it again, but I do recall it being pretty common behaviour at least among our friends.

Did anyone else used to do this in the pre-MM era?

This is a statement given to the police by the way, 13 days after MM disappeared. This isn't made-up.

They left it to one of the group to bathe them all. If that is not abnormal then tell me what is.

Ok- maybe I’m odd but on a group holiday with close friends this might happen. Ie 6-8 kids and all the kids want to get in the bath together so we do the boys and the girls and one parent might do that while others sort the bbq or make up the beds etc. However, none of my friends are like ‘Dave’.

However, I agree that there is a lot that is odd about this whole MM scenario.

“They left it to one of the group to bathe them all. If that is not abnormal then tell me what is.”

What on earth is abnormal about that???

Bertrand did you read the rest of the statement?

This was what you said was abnormal. “they all thought it normal to take it in turns to bathe each others' children in shifts. Yes, they did not bathe their own children. They left it to one of the group to bathe them all. If that is not abnormal then tell me what is.
This was not a normal group of people.”

You're telling me you'd be happy having a succession of male friends bathe your toddlers and 3 year old? So that you and the other parents can have even more downtime?

If I went on holiday with a group of friends and their children yes I would expect to share child care. Including a bath full of children.

nearlythere I’ve read that testimony before.

Personally I have never let another man friend bathe my two daughters, on their own, I have let other women do it though. And yes the info in Dr “Dave”, is horrible and I wouldn’t be continuing to socialise with anyone who spoke like that about any child. I still don’t think that anyone in that group of people, is responsible for Madeline’s disappearance. The thought that 7 adults (several of who did not know each other very well) would all agree to cover this up, does not make any sense.

My friends and I, male and female, would and have done that (bath each other’s similar-aged kids while on holiday together or staying at each other’s houses).

I think it's abnormal to expect anyone to bathe your children but yourself, except grandparents maybe. Is that statement really real? It seems so bizarre.

I was in my early 20s when this happened and didn't pay much attention to the details. Someone asked up thread why the vitriol about this case? If they really left their kids in play groups all day, left them to sleep alone at night and didn't even give them a bath in the couple if hours or so between, most nights. Then I can well understand the vitriol. It all seems so callous.

Someone also mentioned James bulger's mum up thread. I was a child when it happened but in a recent woman's hour interview I heard with her she mentioned the right wing tabloids insinuating that she was not looking after her son properly because she was shoplifting. I have never read anything about the McCann's in the press that states that they were anything other than unlucky. Surely that has something to do with the differences in privilege between the 2 families.

Yes me too re group bathing. Been there done that and got the drenching.

And re kids being out late this is pretty normal in Europe. Pretty normal in Celebland on Insta too but I guess that is ok.

Re the op yes things were different. Somebody who works in the hotel industry has posted re how it used to work. I rem holidays being pushed with these ‘services’ such as they were and others using them.My parents left us with un CRB checked airmen in the 70s on the bases we lived and teenagers there after.We used to sit in pub gardens with a packet of crisps and a coke whilst they were inside. Everybody did. They were the most attentive parents ever.

As regards myself my children are exactly the same age as the Mccanns and we left ours with a listening device a couple of times in European hotels(huge houses). After that summer we never did it again. We were in Europe when it happened. As parents you use all the info you have and safeguard on an individual basis. MM taught me that the extremely unlikely can actually happen and in strange places there will be info you won’t be aware of. That expensive complex wasn’t the secure parent friendly place it was sold to be.

Finally it staggers me the levels that others will go to gloat, paw over the details and push their superior parenting even in such a tragic case. I’ve lost one of my children a couple of times, those minutes were pure agony, god knows how agonising this must be for the Mccanns.

I know I’m not a perfect parent but I’m a damn good one, as are most of us. I make 101 parenting choices daily and yes over the years they haven’t all been the best. Anybody who says they’ve never made a wrong choice or used hindsight as a parent is a liar.

My heart goes out to the Mccanns.

NOrdicStar, maybe some parents used to leave their children just as some probably still do but not decent caring parents.

Yes you have to make choices but never in a million years should one of them be to leave children alone while you go out to enjoy yourself.

I question why some people even have children. The McCanns didn't spend time with Maddie during the day and then could not even be bothered to stay in the apartment with her in the evening. Even worse they knew she had cried for them on other nights but still went out. Totally selfish. As I said before, I really don't know why they even took the children on holiday.

Also as I said before, I would not even leave my dog alone in a strange place and yet some people leave children!! Says it all really

What an utterly ridiculous post.

I agree with you mydogisthebest.

From another thread, but very appropriate to this one:

I don’t understand why people, 12 years on, need to say still, that they would never leave their child. Who cares if you wouldn’t? Does it make you feel superior somehow? Give you a little warm feeling inside?

A lot of ridiculous people on this thread. Lots of folk have said they were left alone to sleep when they were kids - I was, as well. Hotel listening service was engaged, parents didn't go very far but they did go to socialise. And yes, I've been one of a bunch of kids who all shared a bath, splashed around and then got put to bed in sleeping bags on the floor of someone's spare room with a bunch of kids while our parents socialised downstairs, and then got carried home later.

I get that things are different these days and kids are watched over very closely but I absolutely refute that parents who raised their kids in a time when that kind of clingy parenting was not the norm were not 'decent' or 'caring'. We all felt loved and looked after and all turned out fine. This thread has a lot of hysteria on it.

I think it's abnormal to expect anyone to bathe your children but yourself, except grandparents maybe. Is that statement really real? It seems so bizarre

I have never let anyone ever bathe my children.
What is utterly bizarre is people who work full time who have children who don’t actually look after them. Ever.

Most children who go to f/t nursery because the parents work but when they go on holiday the parents look after their children and get to know them and play with them.

I find it bizarre that a couple who both work full time would then stick their children in a Kids club for the day and then leave them to be bathed by other people and then leave them alone in their unlocked apartment st night.

Why have children?

Wow this thread has got really intense. What insecurities are you hiding that mean you have to tell everyone what a good parent you are because you never left your child more than a metre away from you until they were old enough to vote? The complete denial that anyone could be a loving parent and also have done something a bit iffy BUT that I think in all likelihood was fairly socially acceptable not too long ago is madness.

Butlins or pontins (forget which) used to offer this exact service. Leave your kids in room alone and well check on them every half hour and let you know if they wake.
People do stupid irresponsible things on holiday. Mostly they get away with it. Occasionally they pay for it for the rest of their lives.
There but for the grace of god etc etc

Saying you wouldn't leave your sleeping toddler unattended is NOT gloating or bragging that you are a superior parent ffs.

UnspiritualHome Thatsnotmyotter the thread was started by someone who left their kids alone, many posters have said they did it too. Its interesting to me that this seems to have never been acceptable in some circles and possibly still is acceptable in others.

Mn is (quite rightly imo) judgemental about single fathers/mothers who want to cancel their few contact days for nights out or dates. I have regular seen the phrase 'why have kids if you don't give a shit'.

And yet no one is allowed to question if a parent cares about their children if they're in childcare all day, bathed by someone else and left alone at night? Really?

Most people who work full time go on holiday to actually spend more time with their kids, not less.

As has been said many times on this thread people would not be so 'non-judgemental' on a working class couple who did this.

*about a working

No-one says anyone is "not allowed" to post anything, Movingtoplanetlanger. Just as we are allowed to question why people feel the need to post things that even they admit have been said a zillion times before.

I think the pp upthread who mentioned Clingy Parenting summed up my thoughts, exactly.
Now is now, the past is the past. One day, a now will be the past and things will be done differently.
I think judging anything I have to the past by today's standards shows a lack of intelligence and consideration, to be honest.
Today's parents follow guidelines slavishly, yet criticise yesterday's parents who did the same. They don't seem to consider that one day, but they will be criticised by tomorrow's parents, as they seem unable to grasp the concept that things change all the time.
This is put in focus by threads such as this one, but also usually on weaning threads and always on sleeping threads.
I have stated a few times that my babies a slept in their own rooms from day one and and invariably I will at some point be accused of not caring and so eobe usually says they feel sorry for my children.
Today's parenting is so intense, so clingy and so performance will and everybody is so convinced that today's styles and guidelines are the definitively correct ones.
Past generations probably felt the same but I suppose they didn't have the social media echo chamber to sneer at past parents back then.

Lots of extra words in there thanks to predictive text, apologies. Hopefully it still makes sense