Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that things were different before 2007?

749 replies

Haarrieett · 15/03/2019 19:03

Just happened to see that the new Madeleine McCann documentary is trending on twitter - I clicked on it and saw that hundreds of people were saying things along the lines of "Who would leave their children alone in a foreign country?"

I was slightly Blush at this because dh and I honestly used to do this all the time. My dc are a few years older than Madeleine - when we went on holiday to resorts in places like Greece and Spain, we would often leave them alone in a hotel room (often with a window/patio door open for fresh air) while we went out for dinner.

Obviously, after Madeleine went missing we never did it again, but I do recall it being pretty common behaviour at least among our friends.

Did anyone else used to do this in the pre-MM era?

OP posts:
WhatNow40 · 16/03/2019 19:34

"I Hate to see tots, who should be tucked up in bed shoved in buggies so their parents can go out. "

I agree and have never done this. Always tucked DS in bed and enjoyed wine on the balcony, DH snuggling a late snack out of the buffet for us and going back the the bar a million times!

I've always hated seeing kids far to old for buggies shoves in them, simply so that parents can sit at the bar boozing all night. At least we did it on the balcony. Grin

nokidshere · 16/03/2019 19:39

What happens if they’re about equal nokidshere? But if one outcome would result in much more severe harm than the other? Not especially relevant to this, but just out of interest

It's worked out on figures. Let's say that the outcome is a 5 x the likelihood is 1= negligible risk, but if the outcome is 5 x the likelihood is 5 = extremely high risk.

It's obviously more complex than that but that's the most basic form.

youarenotkiddingme · 16/03/2019 19:42

I worked as a holiday rep for many years.

One company was similar type to MW holidays. We did nanny listening service. Great way to earn a few quid for drinks!

The other didn't offer this service but hots I worked in were in quieter resorts. One was named same as MC hotel which we MN Social club. Many parents there left kids in rooms and went to village pubs for drinks 🙄 200m down road and could see hotel - but still 🤦🏼‍♀️
Other resort was 3 hotels at bottom of a hill with only road road in, circular one way and out. Parents use to leave kids in rooms and go over road for drinks. These were a different clientele and didn't tend to be rat arsed or stagger home. For some reason it didn't seem as bad (rightly or wrongly) as people have pointed out.

My son was born 2004. I'd take him out in prison/lay flat pushchair for meals and drinks. I did leave him outside pub whilst I popped inside sometimes but always other villagers around who I knew and knew me. I was 10-15m away. Same village as in the first example. I'd also leave him in apartment with monitor and pop down to shared plaza for community BBQ etc.

Some areas really do lead you into a false sense of security. They seem quiet and safe and I guess no one assumes something like this will happen - until it does.

I had returned to uk in 2006 so no longer left ds as town like in U.K. different.

It certainly has made me question my previous choices though.

ethelfleda · 16/03/2019 19:53

I Hate to see tots, who should be tucked up in bed shoved in buggies so their parents can go out

I kind of feel this way too. Maybe I am being too precious? DS is nearly 18 months and we haven’t had a proper holiday since he was born for this reason. Instead, we go to visit family (who don’t live in the UK) and stay with them. I was waiting until he was much older... or maybe I would book a holiday in a villa or something and stay in with wine while he slept?

This reminds me of a Greek holiday we went on years and years ago... we were walking back to the hotel at around midnight and walked passed a bar - there was a man sitting at the bar drinking and had a child with him in a buggy. Child was probably a toddler and was crying his eyes out. Dad was screaming at him to shut up. Made my blood boil.

Ginger1982 · 16/03/2019 19:56

I also hate seeing kids sleeping in buggies while parents sit at a bar. When we went abroad last year, DS was in bed at roughly his usual time and DH and I drank on the balcony. I think it's selfish keeping your kids out of their beds until very late.

BertrandRussell · 16/03/2019 20:00

“Child was probably a toddler and was crying his eyes out. Dad was screaming at him to shut up. Made my blood boil.”

Yep. That’s exactly how those of us who let their toddlers sleep in pushchairs while on holiday behave.

Fuck’s sake.

ethelfleda · 16/03/2019 20:00

flyingspaghetti that’s awful and not normal!

Once when I was about 9 on holiday, I suffered sun stroke and was really ill one evening and was left alone in the hotel room so my parents could go out. I remember being incredibly dizzy, shivering and sweating at the same time. That was horrible.

ethelfleda · 16/03/2019 20:03

Yep. That’s exactly how those of us who let their toddlers sleep in pushchairs while on holiday behave

Fuck’s sake

That’s not what I was saying at all. Maybe I should have been more clear - that last part was ‘on a seperate note’ so to speak.
It’s just that memory really sticks out in my head and still makes me feel uncomfortable now.
I’m probably too precious about this kind of thing anyway.

MsTSwift · 16/03/2019 20:07

Mine are older now. It’s a few short years of eating at home. It passes quickly (unless you have 5 or 6 kids I guess). Why not just self cater while they are tiny? You will have years to eat out when they are older. Pushing toddlers around in buggies late at night or leaving tinies. It’s not great parenting.

bibbitybobbityyhat · 16/03/2019 20:07

I think as parents we make judgement calls all the time. When in charge of babies and toddlers probably multiple times per day. Very occasionally, in a miniscule number of these judgements, it goes tragically wrong.

I was born at a time when it was normal to leave your baby outside the shop in their pram while you went shopping (yes, even in London), you left your kids in the car with a lemonade and crisps while you drank in the pub and then drove home over the limit and they didn't have seat belts in the back let alone car seats. You also didn't obsess over what school your child went to, got involved in their homework, did their school projects for them, or drove them to after school activities most nights of the week.

Times change. I'm not convinced they've changed that much since 2007 though.

LizzieSiddal · 16/03/2019 20:14

My parents used to leave me, my brother and sister alone every single Saturday night, It started when I was 5 and lasted until I was 10. They went across the road to a neighbours house for a takeaway and drinks.
I thankfully didn’t know it was happened at the time but my younger sister (1year younger) was aware and she was petrified. This was in the 70s.

I also know 4 couples who left their dc every holiday in hotel bedrooms, on cruises and apartment complexes, like Mark Warner’s, whilst they went for dinner. This was late 90s/2000s.

I never do it to my dc as I’d be far too worried to relax and enjoy a meal but people did do it, it was something parents did.

ColourMeExhausted · 16/03/2019 20:17

I think things were a little more 'relaxed' a few decades ago, but even so, I don't recall my parents ever left us by ourselves. Lots of camping/self catering holidays so we got to eat as a family and then they had a drink in the tent or apartment while we slept. I do recall a strong sense of comfort knowing they were nearby (I was a sensitive child and didn't like sleeping somewhere new so I prob couldn't be left!)

Another one who feels uncomfortable seeing toddlers or older kids out on the town with their parents drinking late into the night. Saddest sight I saw was two kids in Lanzarote, their parents were boozing it up with friends, the kids were trying to sleep in bar stools they'd cobbled together. This was before I had my DC but I vowed I'd never do anything like that.

You have kids, you want to go on holiday, you either stay with family, self cater or drink on your hotel balcony or even in bed. Still can have a good holiday!

Soubriquet · 16/03/2019 20:26

I remember myself as a child sleeping in chairs whilst my parents were having a few drinks

I honestly don’t think it’s a problem

They are there with the child, the parents have spent a lot of money on a holiday and deserve time to have a wind down

What is wrong with a young child sleeping in his pushchair with his teddy and blanket whilst his parents have a drink or two?

I’m not on about ones who get rip roaring drunk and scream abuse at crying toddlers, but kids who are asleep and the parents just having a drink

NewAccount270219 · 16/03/2019 20:41

I don't really get the objection to them sleeping in a buggy. If they're asleep they were clearly ok/relaxed with the situation, and they're going to have to go to sleep in a somewhat unfamiliar environment wherever you put them down - they're on holiday, their own room and bed aren't an option. I do think it would be not ok to do it with a baby like my DS, who stirs and wakes at every loud noise when he sleeps in his pram and so would get almost no sleep if we tried to get him to sleep in a bar, but a baby or toddler who will sleep happily and soundly in their buggy - what's the harm?

CosmicVaginaBiscuit · 16/03/2019 20:45

I'm in my late 30s, my parents never left us alone in a hotel.
We also used to go to holiday park places with family friends, I remember a woman in the caravan next to us complained to staff about us noisy children who'd been left at home alone. She'd wrongly assumed both my parents had gone out and was trying to stir up trouble. It was quite funny when my dad answered the door to her and the staff member (we were watching a film eating popcorn that night, though I'm sure we made a lot of noise at other times!)

I do remember being hugely shocked in 2007 that someone would have left small children alone.
BIL left his children in a hotel room while he and his wife (mother of the children) had dinner in the hotel restaurant. They were found wandering the corridors! I can't believe people can be so stupid tbh.

Thesearmsofmine · 16/03/2019 21:00

It’s a judgement call about taking them out with you or getting them to bed at their normal bedtime. Some children will happily sleep in the pushchair or stay out later, some won’t.
My elder two dc have always been fine staying up late and love to be out and about, my youngest gets over tired and grumpy and won’t sleep in his pushchair so sometimes we will all go back or sometimes one of us will just take him back and the other stay with the older two. Neither of us get drunk on holiday but you might see us having one or two glasses or wine or beers.

BitchQueen90 · 16/03/2019 21:02

I was a young child in the 90s and my mother would never have dreamed of leaving me alone in a hotel room and going out. She would never drag me along so she could go out for a drink either (she was a lone parent).

I'm the same with my DS. If I want to go out and have drinks at home I get a babysitter. When we go on holiday I have a drink on the balcony. My son is more important than going out for a drink.

BertrandRussell · 16/03/2019 21:38

“Saddest sight I saw was two kids in Lanzarote, their parents were boozing it up with friends, the kids were trying to sleep in bar stools they'd cobbled together”

Yep. Because this is EXACTLY the same as a child cuddled down under a rug with their bear in their pushchair drifting off to sleep hearing the sound of their parents voices as they chat. Exactly.

QuentinWinters · 16/03/2019 21:51

I cannot get my head round leaving a 4 year old/2 year olds with no listening service, alone where I could not see or hear them
Mine all had night terrors at that age so my main concern would be that they would have a nightmare and not be able to find me.....then something could happen if they tried to leave or did leave the room.

I heard all the chat in 2007 (My children were little at the time) and don't know anyone who did that or thought it was ok.

AnnaMagnani · 16/03/2019 22:08

My parents definitely did this - Butlins in the 80s. I know because I can remember waking up as my DM fell through the door having got food poisoning at the seafood restaurant and woke me up.

Totally normal - parents put the kids to bed and then went out themselves. I guess this was the thing in Mark Warner as well and the resort gave you a sense of security which turned out sadly to be very wrong.

RavenousBabyButterfly · 16/03/2019 22:14

My eldest is the same age as MM. It's not something I ever would have felt comfortable doing but I can remember plenty of people on the parenting forum I used at the time talking about doing it. It may not have been the norm as such but it was certainly not unusual.

Biancadelrioisback · 16/03/2019 22:29

Im early 30s and no my parents never left us. Our first holidays were going camping and caravanning where my parents would pop us to bed then sit outside the tent/caravan with a bottle of wine and snacks. They would take it in turns to stretch their legs/go to the onsite shop/use the facilities etc so we were never alone. When we started going on abroad holidays I was around 6, DBro & Dsis were 8. Parents always took us out for dinner around 7 and we'd be in bed by 9 every night. My parents then sat on the balcony or front patio if we had a villa again with snack, music and booze. I vividly remember being 13 and on holiday and this was the first time they left us to have a grown ups night out. One night in 2 weeks and left us with a mobile phone, me and my two older siblings and cash. They bought us films to watch and ordered takeaways etc and even then they only went for a couple of hours.

Mammylamb · 16/03/2019 23:29

Nope. I was born early 80s and there is no way that my parents would have left us alone in a hotel room (or chalet) even when my 10 year old brother was there. Abduction hadn’t even crossed my mother’s mind (it is very rare). More concerned about if there was a fire, or we hurt ourselves, or even if we were just scared. I have a 3 year old and just couldn’t imagine leaving him alone in a hotel room

Meagain19 · 17/03/2019 02:39

Wtf! No!!

Nearlythere1 · 17/03/2019 03:00

Nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that not only did all the group that the Mccann's were with see fit to leave their children alone, despite the fact they were all GPs who knew the dangers, and despite the fact there was a babysitting service available; they all thought it normal to take it in turns to bathe each others' children in shifts. Yes, they did not bathe their own children. They left it to one of the group to bathe them all. If that is not abnormal then tell me what is.
This was not a normal group of people.

This is the testimony of another GP friend on the holiday with them, Dr Katarina Gaspar. It's a little-known but searchable testimony on google, and one that was apparently not considered interesting enough to pursue. One of the reasons the original detective, Amaral, had such suspicion of the MCs. "Dave", by the way, is another of the doctors that was on that holiday.

On 16 May 2007, just 13 days after Madeleine disappeared, Dr Katarina Gaspar made this statement:

“One night, when all the adults, that is, from those couples I have mentioned above, were all sitting around on a patio outside the house where we were all staying. We had been eating and drinking ‘Berbers’. I was sitting between Gerry and Dave and I think both were talking about Madeleine. I can't remember the conversation in its entirety, but they seemed to be discussing a particular scenario. I remember Dave saying to Gerry something about ‘she’, meaning Madeleine, ‘would do
this’.

“While he mentioned the word ‘this’, Dave was doing the action of sucking one of his fingers, pushing it in and out of his mouth, while with his other hand he was doing a circle around his nipple, with a circular movement around his clothes. This was done in a provocative way. There seemed to be an explicit insinuation about what he was saying and doing. I remember being shocked by that. I always felt it was something very weird and that it was not something anyone should say or do. I looked at Gerry, and also at Dave, to gauge their reactions.

“I looked around as if saying: “Did someone else hear that, or was it just me?”. The conversations stopped for a moment, then we all began conversing again. Moreover, I remember Dave doing the same thing on another occasion. In saying this, I want to mention once again that it was during a conversation in which he was talking about an imaginary scenario, although I’m not sure.

“He again stuck one of his fingers in and out of his mouth and with the other hand he once again drew a circle around his nipple in a provocative and sexual way. I think he was referring to the way she, that is, his daughter Lily, would behave or what she would do. I think he did this later during this same holiday, but I'm not sure.

“The only time since then that I have been in the company of Dave and Fiona was several weeks after the holidays, when Savio and I met Gerry, Kate, Dave and Fiona in a restaurant in Leicester. I’m sure that he said what he said and made the gestures I have related, but [the second time] it could have happened in the restaurant in Leicester, although I do think it was in Majorca that I heard Dave say and do this for the second time. After the second occasion [when he made these gestures] I took it more seriously.

“I remember thinking whether he would look at my daughter and other little girls in a different way than I or others do. I imagined that he had perhaps visited internet sites related to little children. In a word, I thought that he could be interested in child pornography on the web. During our holiday in Majorca, each parent would bath the children in turn. I was keen to stay near the bathroom if Dave was bathing the children.

“I remember I said to Savio to be careful and to be close by if Dave was helping to bathe the children and my daughter in particular…”