To think that things were different before 2007?

[Haarrieett]

Just happened to see that the new Madeleine McCann documentary is trending on twitter - I clicked on it and saw that hundreds of people were saying things along the lines of "Who would leave their children alone in a foreign country?"

I was slightly at this because dh and I honestly used to do this all the time. My dc are a few years older than Madeleine - when we went on holiday to resorts in places like Greece and Spain, we would often leave them alone in a hotel room (often with a window/patio door open for fresh air) while we went out for dinner.

Obviously, after Madeleine went missing we never did it again, but I do recall it being pretty common behaviour at least among our friends.

Did anyone else used to do this in the pre-MM era?

“How stupid do you think people are?”

I don’t think people are stupid at all. This isn’t conscious rational thinking it’s atavistic, cave person thinking.

bertrand

I know what you mean about magical thinking

A fair few years ago a small child died because mum popped to get a towel when little one was in the bath, mum slipped and banged her head

She was being investigated in case it was murder

My friend said that she hoped it was murder

Because if it wasn't...then it could happen to anyone, it could happen to us

I remember there being a listening service when I was a kid but not sure if my parents used it. But they did tell us when they had 3 kids under 10 they used to leave us at home in bed asleep while they went next door for dinner. They'd just pop back and check on us once an hour.

The youngest was 2/3 years old.

Interesting to see how many posts proudly proclaiming that they take their children out with them and put them to sleep in a buggy.
I will take the judginess to a new level by saying I think this is the height of selfishness and I Hate to see tots, who should be tucked up in bed shoved in buggies so their parents can go out.
I have never left my children alone on holiday but I would equally never dream of dragging them out when they should be in bed.

We were never left but I remember my ex mil ( who I like! ) telling me that back in the day they used to go abroad and leave the 2dc, both boys and around 2/7, 3/8, 4,9, 5/10 years old in the hotel and actually go out into the resorts! I was shocked.
One holiday was Benidorm and they were on around the 10th floor of a huge hotel.

She wasn't a bit bothered by it.

I can honestly say I'd never heard of this until MM, I was a child of the 80's.

“Hate to see tots, who should be tucked up in bed shoved in buggies so their parents can go out”
This is a bit bizarre! Tucked up in your pushchair with your bear and a rug, hearing your parents chatting nearby and drifting off to sleep, then being carried to bed and tucked in later-what could be cozier and nicer?

I don’t think people are stupid at all. This isn’t conscious rational thinking it’s atavistic, cave person thinking

You might not have to be thick headed to have the instinct to think it in the first place. But yes, I think you’d have to be, if not stupid, then fairly ignorant or shallow thinking to really believe it.

My dad once left me in a hotel room when we were on vacation and he took my older step sister out to a bar. I woke up covered in 3 inch cockroaches and freaked out, ran out of the building in my pjs and sat shivering on the stairs by the side of a main road for hours till they got back. I was 7 then. He also sent me to spend a day at a beach 10 mins away from our apartment alone once when he had a had back and my step mother had food poisoning. I spent a whole day alone, got badly sunburnt and had my backpack stolen while I was swimming. I was 9 that time. I also have a vivid memory of being completely lost on a beach when too young to read, ceying because I uad no idea which of the nearly identical hotels was our one. I had been sent out to play alone before breakfast.

All of that was in the 80's though. And i don't think it was normal even then to be that crappy about parenting. The furthest I have ever gone while abroad with my kids is the balcony.

Should have said:

Believe it enough to change your behaviour, ignoring common sense etc. I think you’re underestimating people’s ability to not behave like cavemen.

I think people would have a lot more sympathy for the McCanns had they put their hands up and said " we fed up, we were wrong to leave them " but they have always defended that decision as far as I know.

I think you're absolutely right and that's why the debate about leaving children alone has never gone away.

spaghetti, no I don’t think that was common in the 80s. Sounds horrible .

I think when people assess risk at work, there are scales for how likely a risk is and how bad the outcome would be. I forget the ‘proper’ wording sorry. So, a child getting sunburnt when left alone at the beach is more likely than them being abducted, for example, but the outcome is less serious. I wish I could remember how you decide between something which is very unlikely to happen, but potentially very serious and something which is likely to happen, but has less potential for anything serious to happen...

Absolutely never left my kids alone on the many holidays we had abroad when they were babies/toddlers. It was certainly not the norm then and at the time it was shocking to everyone that the children had been left alone.

I will admit that I left my 2 year old and 6 month old baby asleep in the house whilst I popped over the road for a couple of hours for a party.

However, my SIL was still in the house, though not responsible for the kids I know she would have stepped in if needed, and I had taken the baby monitor with me too.

@flyingspaghettimonster
Your father took 70s liberty to a new level. How scary that must have been for your younger self. They were lucky you didn't come to serious harm.

I remember going with a friend to Butlins in the 90’s.
We were left for the night by my friends parents when they went for a meal and drinks.

Butlin’s specifically had a member of staff that walked the paths around the blocks of rooms listening out for the children. It was an advertised service. So it absolutely was a thing to leave your DC and enough people did it to make it worthwhile for Butlin’s to run and advertise a service enabling parents to feel better about leaving their children at night.

I think many of you would not know if your parents left you asleep and popped out back in the day because you would have been asleep.

The formula for risk assessment is worked out on the formula:

Risk = Severity of harm x Likelihood of occurrence

No, I wouldn’t know, but I specifically remember discussing MM with my mum at the time of her disappearance and she said she had never done anything like it with us. She was a pretty laid back person and mum, so I really don’t think she would have lied about it or been more protective than the average.

Thank you nokidshere!

What happens if they’re about equal nokidshere? But if one outcome would result in much more severe harm than the other? Not especially relevant to this, but just out of interest!

We used to go to a lot of haven type holidays when I was young (mid 30s now) and my parents never left me at the caravan/chalet... however we used to spend a lot of time in the amusements while my parents were in the club. I was probably 6 upwards then with older brothers but still could be considered a risk. Also I hated it as when we had spent up and went back into the club, it was so noisy and I was so tired, I remember begging for us to go 'home' to bed and my parents would always want one more drink till what felt really late to me (it was probably only 10.30/11 max). I remember clearly hating that!

My firstborn is the same age as Madeleine and I never left her. I also wouldn't force her to stay up tired. I would (and still do now with my youngest) have a glass of wine in the apartment when they slept. All this about fancying eating somewhere nicer etc is tough in my opinion, you are there as parents, you are responsible so adult stuff that you might have to miss out on is just one of those sacrifices to make.

Also, and I don't mean to sound like a martyr, is there anything nicer than having a fun, busy day out with the children and knowing they will go to bed exhausted and you can then relax in the apartment and be happy knowing they are safe and sound in bed.

The level of hatred this case demands always intrigues me. Plenty of children have been abducted or gone missing or died as a result of not being watched carefully enough before and after this case but none appear to invoke the same level of feelings. I wonder why that is?

Well, things like the mortgage scam I mentioned earlier don't exactly help...