To think that things were different before 2007?

[Haarrieett]

Just happened to see that the new Madeleine McCann documentary is trending on twitter - I clicked on it and saw that hundreds of people were saying things along the lines of "Who would leave their children alone in a foreign country?"

I was slightly at this because dh and I honestly used to do this all the time. My dc are a few years older than Madeleine - when we went on holiday to resorts in places like Greece and Spain, we would often leave them alone in a hotel room (often with a window/patio door open for fresh air) while we went out for dinner.

Obviously, after Madeleine went missing we never did it again, but I do recall it being pretty common behaviour at least among our friends.

Did anyone else used to do this in the pre-MM era?

I don't even know the ins and outs of it all, I'm sure I would be more appalled if I did. Do they suppose she was taken to be intigrated into another family? It doesn't even bare thinking about

Thanks for answering, WillGym.

What’s interesting, of course is that children are less likely to come to harm alone in a hotel room than on the beach, or in a busy road or being driven in a car. But there is no logic to risk msnsgement!

Who let's a 3 year old play alone on the beach or in a busy road though?
As for the risk of being driven in a car, don't be so bloody ridiculous.Practically anything we do carries some risk but we can't avoid doing everything,whereas leaving your children alone to go off socialising we most certainly can!

My parents never left us or my Dsis and DB. We're all mid 30s.

Not normal in my family. We would go out with our parents and stay up late.

Just to add I qualified as an early years worker in the early 2000’s. If it came to my attention that a parent was doing this I would have reported it as a concern to social services so certainly not normal!

“Who let's a 3 year old play alone on the beach or in a busy road though?”
Children are drowned and killed by cars every year.
We make ourselves feel better, and put a “magic circle” round ourselves by never leaving them alone. Because that’s something we can easily do- the real risks are too terrifying to think about.

Please stop talking sense. It's offensive to the helicopter mummies.

It's the opposite of sense when posters have repeatedly stated that they think that the risk of leaving a child alone is fairly negligible but that there is a strong likelihood of the child waking and being severely distressed if you put them to bed and go socialising. If you think the goal of a parent is for their kids to make it through their upbringing alive then you have a fucking low bar as that's not even the minimum a parent should be achieving.

“t's the opposite of sense when posters have repeatedly stated that they think that the risk of leaving a child alone is fairly negligible”
So why is this case always cited whenever anyone asks about leaving a child of practicality any age alone practically anywhere?

I'm mid 50s. My youngest is practically the same age as Madeleine.

One day when I was chatting with my NCT friends group over tea and cake, one of the Mums said almost casually that she and her dp had gone out for a drink at the local wine bar, leaving their baby (by then about 6 months I guess) at home sleeping in his cot. She said it like she thought any of us would do it. The wine bar was 5 minutes walk from their house and they went for an hour. When she saw the reaction of the rest of the group, she was shocked and then a bit mortified. This is a well educated couple, could easily afford a baby sitter. I think people sometimes do misjudge what is sensible to do when looking after children. In the Portugal case there was a group of them who all did the same and thus reassured each other that it was fine.

I once made the mistake of reading my book while on a beach with toddler ds, dh and dd. Dh was distracted by something dd was doing and wasn't keeping an eye on ds when I thought he was. Ds was lost for the longest 3 minutes of my life!

I'm so pleased someone posted about butlins listening service. I remember clearly being left with the phone of the hook whilst my parents went to the show bar (and saw status quo!) and it was at least a 10 min walk and they were usually so protective.

NO!!!! Defo not! My daughter is a similar age to mm and I was horrified that they’d left her alone. It hasn’t been the norm since probably the 80s to be fair.

@Haarrieett what would have happened if they woke up and you were wandering 10 mins away and were oblivious? They had a nightmare and were inconsolable and no one came?

All these threads get deleted. I have to say, IMO that taking your kids on holiday, putting them in day clubs, and leaving them alone at night, is almost like you don't really want them with you on holiday.

The level of hatred this case demands always intrigues me. Plenty of children have been abducted or gone missing or died as a result of not being watched carefully enough before and after this case but none appear to invoke the same level of feelings. I wonder why that is?

No-one would dream of saying that James Bulgers mum should not have let go of a two yr old in a busy shopping centre, or that 5 yr old Sarah Payne should not have been out playing with her siblings in a field, or that the two little boys that Mary Bell killed should not, at 3 & 4 yrs old, been out playing on their estate, that Ben Needham shouldn't have been allowed out in his (grandmothers?) garden. And I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other cases that could be cited.

So what makes this case the one that everyone has to shout from the rooftops about, have such strong opinions about? Whipped to a frenzy by the media coverage and internet trolls.

The fact is that all parents weigh up what risks they are prepared to take with their children. And 99.9% of the time they can justify the risk because nothing bad happens. There are a great many people who have used a babysitting service in a hotel, or a listening service, or who have just gone to the bar with or without a baby monitor. There are a great many more who's children have accidents in or near the home that are totally preventable. But there is a sense of "it won't happen to me" because you have done it before and so can justify doing it again.

There are no winners. A child is missing presumed dead, her parents will be vilified for life regardless of the outcome and her siblings lives have changed forever.

And still, every day, a child is being neglected somewhere, left to their own devices, abducted, missing or killed because of something their parents decided to do, or not do on that particular day. But they aren't in the press, or on media so we don't know about them, don't fight their corner, don't shout from the rooftops about them.

But we are ok. Because these are things that happen to other people, not us.

I know some people are insistent that they could see the apartment from the tapas bar.
What was the plan if they saw it catch fire, or someone trying to get or even a child coming out?

I got five children, oldest is 32 years old and youngest 10 years old. I have never left them alone at such a young age and this covers a time period from the 1980’s until now. My abusive mum used to leave me alone in the 70’s when I was very little and I remember being alone and scared.

It’s not something I’ve never done or would have considered doing.

I remember waking up once (at home in the UK) to an empty house. I was about 6/7 years old and my mum had nipped to the local shops. I was crying and so scared when she got back just 5 mins later. She never ever left us alone so it was very unusual for me. I think the McCanns were so irresponsible for leaving those kids alone in an unlocked apartment, but they've paid the ultimate price for it.

I think the reason so many people would not leave their dcs alone in a hotel or wherever while they had dinner out, is because it’s so easy not to do that.

I make no judgements about the McCanns btw. I know very little about any of what happened. But thinking of the couple I know who I know do this sort of thing with their dc. The risk is low, but the reason it is unthinkable to me is that I would feel especially terrible if I left a child alone and there was a tragic incident like this, is that I’d always berate myself for doing something so easily avoidable. Like not doing up a child’s seatbelt or giving a toddler a grape to eat and they then choked on it. Nobody would deserve to be vilified for it, but it definitely is avoidable; you know there’s a risk, but you take it anyway when the benefit is only for yourself, (as you’re the one who gets to go out and enjoy themselves, not the child).

Of course perceived risk is coloured by why the risk was taken. There was some study I heard about on the radio where they discussed the risk of leaving a child alone in a car. I don’t remember the details that accurately, but it was along the lines of if people thought a (fictional) parent was leaving their child alone in the car so they could go and do something for themselves, the perceived risk was higher than if the parent was going to help a stranger who had just fallen over and broken their leg, (or something).

I think it’s a projection of how guilty we would feel if...

They were on a Mark Warner holiday. You paid good money (I could never afford but I know others who could!) to have this facility. This was all part of the service. People do not seem to realise this

They and all their friends left their children alone. They didn't use any child care service at night. They used the kids clubs during the day.

Just to add the thing the (fictional) parent was doing for themself was a non emergency; like getting a coffee or something like that. It made the perceived risk higher, when, obviously, the actual risk didn’t change at all.

I'm watching the documentary now and it seems that the witness who saw the 'man carrying a child' across the street was also on her way back to check on the children. It blows my mind.

Yes, Mark Warner included babysitting & listening services - the McCann's chose to use neither of them.

It’s also magical thinking- if we don’t do this thing our children will be safe......

It’s also magical thinking- if we don’t do this thing our children will be safe......

Only if the person thinking it is a superstitious fool!

I did this one thing the safer way, so that makes my child magically immune from harm ? How stupid do you think people are?