To think that things were different before 2007?

[Haarrieett]

Just happened to see that the new Madeleine McCann documentary is trending on twitter - I clicked on it and saw that hundreds of people were saying things along the lines of "Who would leave their children alone in a foreign country?"

I was slightly at this because dh and I honestly used to do this all the time. My dc are a few years older than Madeleine - when we went on holiday to resorts in places like Greece and Spain, we would often leave them alone in a hotel room (often with a window/patio door open for fresh air) while we went out for dinner.

Obviously, after Madeleine went missing we never did it again, but I do recall it being pretty common behaviour at least among our friends.

Did anyone else used to do this in the pre-MM era?

Just as is always the case, there will be a group who always did it (and still do) and a group who didn't. Despite what apparently happened, the chances of something going wrong are slim.

It's not something I could do. I couldn't live with the guilt if something happened. I remember being surprised that so many said they did it. But the debate over whether it was right still happened back in 2007.

I remember my parents leaving me and my sisters alone in a hotel room with the listening service on when they went to dinner downstairs. This was in the 1980s.

Yes I think most of us assumed things were safer when in a holiday resort. Don't know why but yes that was what most of us thought.

You can in no way speak for most people. YOU assumed that behaviour such as leaving a 3-year-old and 2 toddling babies alone in an unlocked ground floor apartment in a foreign country with a pool between you and those children whilst you had dinner and drinks was okay. Others never did, never did this and find it neglectful behaviour. Speak for yourself.

I was born in the 1970s...my parents never left me as a small child (I think I was about 8 the first time they left me home for any amount of time - about 20 mins iirc) either home or holiday. I know that some neighbours would pop to another neighbour for half an hour to have a tea/ coffee and leave a sleeping baby but even then they were the exception...

I have heard of the Butlins thing but dont know anyone who actually did it.

My DC are now grown up...I did once leave a sleeping 9mo DS1 at home for 5 mins while I ran to the shop at the top of the road and back but he knew nothing about it. I did also leave DS2 in a car by mistake for 20 mins once at a similar age but never left either to go out for a meal or anything. It would never have occurred to me, even as a single parent with no family to provide childcare.

In my experience this was not something my parents ever entertained. We went to Greek island holiday resorts in the early 90’s so way before this and we have loads of photos of me and my brother dressed up nicely sitting in front of Greek tavernas in family resorts with a fruit drink with loads of umbrellas in, we loved it! I remember sitting round the pool bar on the resort until late... it was probably only about 9.30 but it seemed amazing to us. My parents would never have left us alone in an apartment to go out. What if we’d woke up and gone to find them and got lost? I’m 36 and it was totally normal to have small children out in the family resorts. If you want a grown up meal get a baby sitter or go on holiday by yourselves.

Honestly, what is the purpose of this thread? More finger-wagging and "I would never...". Who cares what you would do?

Considering the OP is a person who found leaving young children on their own in a holiday location totally normal and was seeking justification for it, I'd say the purpose to her was quite the opposite of finger-wagging. She asked if it was normal. A lot of people said no.

Nope. My parents were horrified at the idea. When we were kids in the 70's and 80's, they were sat in the hotel or the car outside the tent with a book every evening. They said they'd have loved to have gone to the pub but wouldn't have dreamed have actually leaving us and going!

I was talking about this with DH earlier, in an emergency I might leave DC in bed and nip across the road or next door to speak to neighbours on their doorstep but I can't imagine going inside and relaxing with a cup of coffee or a glass of wine while my DC was alone

I was left with a listening service at 10 in the early 90s. By then, my older sibling was at university, so prior to that we did have evenings in our room together while our parents had quiet, adult time .

I agree with LyingWitchInTheWardrobe.

Didn’t the dad check on her at 9pm ish & another parent checked at 9.30 (not visually) & they discovered her missing at 10pm? I’m not quite sure why a listening service would have made a difference, there is no guarantee anything would have been heard or that all staff are “safe”. Yes they should have locked the door & that will haunt them forever but it’s likely she had been watched prior. I’ve gotten separated from my parents as a child in a shop etc & if someone wanted to take me they probably could have. Likewise nearly every parent I know has lost sight of their child in a playground for a minute or two or had their child run 50 metres ahead of them or trail 30 metres behind leaving scope for a determined person to grab that child.

How is it not neglect? Look at the definition of the word 'neglect' and I think you will find it's pretty fitting to their actions...

Failure to care for... failure to care for their daughter.
Not pay proper attention to.... they didn't pay proper attention to their daughter.
Fail to do something.... they failed to keep her from harm.

There actions were neglectful in every sense.

We went on hold at very near there a few weeks after. I was keeping DC close someone asked is this because of MM I was like eh no this is because I worry they might wander into the sea , on to a road or get lost in the crowds in an unfamiliar place .

I did once leave a sleeping 9mo DS1 at home for 5 mins while I ran to the shop at the top of the road and back but he knew nothing about it. I did also leave DS2 in a car by mistake for 20 mins once at a similar age but never left either to go out for a meal or anything.

Apologies for singling this poster out but do these examples also fall under neglect?

I was a child in the 70's and it was fairly common for hotels in the uk and abroad to offer a listening service. I remember my parents going back down to the bar and popping back every now and then. It wasn't something I did with my kids but it wouldn't have been unusual back then. I'm from the generation of kids that spent the odd hour or two in the car in the pub car park supplied with crisps and coke

I was left alone at Butlin's with a listening service thing. This would have been 88-91 I reckon, not sure what age - under 10 but I don't really remember it. But my mum didn't fully trust the service to be thorough, so sent my dad off following whoever it was to see if they actually did properly listen outside every chalet. Poor dad did, until eventually the listening service person walkie-talkied the other security people about a suspicious man lurking around and he got collared for a talking to

Abroad once I was older, they put me in kids clubs during the day, but ended up following the kids club around to the ice cream shop, pool etc as my mum also didn't trust them. God knows why they bothered booking places with these things if they just stalked me!

My own kids are terrible sleepers so I would never leave them alone, in UK or abroad. I can't imagine ever fully feeling secure enough to relax and enjoy dinner etc.

Quite a few people are confident that their parents never took risks its them while they were asleep. How do they know?

With them, not it them

I don't view leaving my DS for 5 mins (and it was no longer than that) as neglect. He was in his cot in a locked, secure house and no more at risk than if I was in the garden hanging up washing, which many people do regularly.
Leaving younger DS asleep in a locked car was an accident. It probably wasn't as long as 20 mins in retrospect...basically I was dealing with a toddler DS1, my then P was bringing in shopping. We both assumed the other was bringing in DS2. A short while later we realised neither had, and fetched him in. We felt terrible at the time of course but he slept through it.

Is it the same as deliberately leaving young children in an unlocked holiday apartment to go out for the evening for dinner? Well maybe I would say this, but I dont feel it is at all.

Apologies for singling this poster out but do these examples also fall under neglect?

Yes! Leaving a 9 month old baby alone for any time Is ridiculous, the distress they would be caused waking up alone would be awful. And leaving a child of a similar age in a car for 20 mins (how this can be by mistake I don't know) is even worse. A public place, again a potentially distressed baby, alone in a car. How long would it take for someone to put a window through and kidnap them? How can a baby defend them self? If anyone thinks either of these scenarios are ok then I think you should be re-evaluating your parenting skills. It would take 2 minutes to put a baby of that age in their pram with a blanket and walk to the shop, again it would take 2 minutes to put a baby of that age in its pram and take them with you out of the car. I can't see how either is justifiable. I have a 7, 6 and 4 year old I wouldn't leave in the house alone to go to the shop around the corner, as much of a chore it is when I've run out of milk I get their shoes on and take them with me. But then I'd never neglect my children because I've learnt about how not to be a parent the hard way.

Velvetspoon Admittedly I’ve been tempted to run to the corner shop for milk etc when the dcs have been asleep but I never did it. I wasn’t so much scared for them but in case I was run over or fell & hit my head. Regarding the car situation you made a mistake (which many parents do) but likewise if someone had smashed the window & taken the child or the car was too hot many people would blame you.

In my early forties. Had quite a lot of independence even compared to other children my age, but even so my parents would never have left us alone at such young ages.

It always amazes me when I read threads like this that it's full of people who "would never" have done this or "have never heard of anyone" doing this even 30/40 years ago and yet on other threads people are bleating on about "the good old days" where children could roam from morning till night without an adult in sight and having a wonderful adventurous life

I have 5 sisters who have 12 children between them. The youngest of their children was 15 by the time I had my two boys. At a family party in 2003 my dc were 4 & 2 and every one of my sisters, and my mother, laughed at me and called me precious & neurotic because I wouldn't leave them upstairs alone (asleep) in the bedroom of the same hotel that we were dining at. A year later I fell out with my friend who lived directly opposite us, because she came to my house for dinner and left her 5 yr old asleep at home, he was fine she said because she brought the baby monitor with her.

It might not have been the norm for everyone but it certainly wasn't as unusual as people think. And, as a child in the 60s, we too sat on the pavement outside the pub with a (glass) bottle of coke and a bag of crisps whilst the adults were inside, along with our friends and their families

On a side note I missed the programme, please could someone tell me what is was called and which channel it was on?

Just found this Mumsnet thread from around the time - I haven't read the whole thing but it seems to be arguing over whether the McCanns were directly culpable for being so irresponsible or whether they'd made a mistake but shouldn't be berated for it because they were suffering enough. Not a lot of people saying what they'd done was all fine and normal: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/331488-madeleine-mccann-was-not-abducted-because-she-was-left-in?pg=1&order=

We went to a Mark Warner resort a few years before MM went missing and noticed there was a listening service. We once ate in a hotel restaurant and left DD in the room and took a listening monitor but no way would have left the building, and even felt bad about that and never did it again.