To think that things were different before 2007?

[Haarrieett]

Just happened to see that the new Madeleine McCann documentary is trending on twitter - I clicked on it and saw that hundreds of people were saying things along the lines of "Who would leave their children alone in a foreign country?"

I was slightly at this because dh and I honestly used to do this all the time. My dc are a few years older than Madeleine - when we went on holiday to resorts in places like Greece and Spain, we would often leave them alone in a hotel room (often with a window/patio door open for fresh air) while we went out for dinner.

Obviously, after Madeleine went missing we never did it again, but I do recall it being pretty common behaviour at least among our friends.

Did anyone else used to do this in the pre-MM era?

Wouldn't ever have done it myself.

But my opinion might be slightly coloured by the hysterical rage of 'Child Neglect!' 'Unfit Mother!' coming from my ex (and fully backed up by his mother & sister) when he realised I'd left DD asleep in her cot whilst I took a bin bag out and he was stood at the front door when I turned back around, having not noticed him tiptoe in through the front gate.

I never told him that he probably had a bit of a point just very well hidden by his being a fucking prick when, about five years later, I did it with DD2 and the front door lock malfunctioned as it closed, leaving me to do panicstricken bodyslams into the door until the frame finally broke and I could get back in.

Wandering off for a meal, wine and chat with fully mobile children left alone in a place where you don't know who else has keys, whether it's actually fire safe, you can't hear them if they cry or see somebody approaching, though? Never. But I was a skint single Mum - I'd have just been arrested and charged, not given an audience with the fucking Pope.

Why is it different? The distance isn’t any different to many just decent size gardens.

Well, most people have their front door that they can't see locked, for starters at night when their kids (and then themselves) are sleeping. Your garden isn't in a foreign country, you know what's around it and wow, that's a pretty big garden! Does it have an unlocked pool in it, too, that you're not supervising whilst you're out there? Those are just a few of the differences.

@ivykaty The Tapas bar was approximately 150 yards away as the crow flies but the parents had to go along a path which took longer

Listening services are crap anyway. My dh remembers being repeatedly sick as a toddler alone in a hotel room. Listening service did not pick that up. And if someone wanted to take a child they would hardly be noisy about it.

And there was a pool in between . . . an unlocked pool . . .

@ivykaty44. You could maybe see the wall but not the room where the children were .

Oldbutstillgotit I have been to the complex, walked through it and parked alongside the apartments, I’m aware of how it’s laid out

@ivyksty44 there is no way the children could have been seen or heard from The Tapas Bar .

I have made many stupid decisions, but not that one. I can see how you might if all your friends are doing it.
I also think this might be a decision more easily made by parents who use a lot of childcare. I know my danger radar was a lot sharper when I was with the dc all day every day.

Interesting name @ivyjaty44

We went to Villa Pia in Italy in 2004/5 - always advertising in the NCT magazine - where there were no room keys, and baby monitors didn't work through the stone walls. Luckily our room was in a different building directly opposite from the courtyard where the adults ate so we could see and hear, but I remember feeling very uncomfortable about it and about how easily anyone could have accessed anyone's rooms/children at any point, and how any child could have spent the evening crying or escaping - and yet they were fully booked with people who didn't mind.

Same with family friendly hotel chain hotels like Moonfleet Manor - phone listening service with 1 person covering reception as well as potentially 50 rooms. We ate with the kids after the first night, it didn't feel right also it was a dirty mouldy place

my parents did this in 79 in butlins when i was four i remember it coz i was fucking scared when i woke up

*ivykaty44

Oldbutstillfotit I’ve stood at the restaurant and can see the apartment
*
I can see the local church from my house, it would still take me 20 minutes to walk there. What’s your point?

Of course nothing was different in 2007. Most parents then as now would never consider leaving toddlers in an unlocked room out of site while they went out for dinner.
The parents who think this is fine are just the same now as in 2007

Oldbutstillgotit - what’s that supposed to mean
Interesting name ivyjaty44

God it wasn't that long ago - about 12 or 13 years ago?! When Madaleine disappeared I had just given birth and my elder son was a similar age - 3 or 4. It gave me nightmares. My elder son is now only 16. I would never have dreamt of doing anything on holiday that didn't revolve around my children. On holiday we would let our children stay up later with us either by staying in with a glass of wine while they played in the same room or going for a walk by the sea. In the 70s when I was younger my parents were the same.

Joe blogged is the apartment as far away as your church?

As a child in the 70's who became a mother in the 90's, no it wasnt normal. The only people who did it were judged, and harshly.

My parents left me sleeping in a hotel room when I was about two, while they went for a drink in the bar.

The fire alarm went off, the hotel was evacuated, and they had to run up the stairs (while everyone else was coming down) to get me.

They were so scared they never ever did it again. And I may just be constructing the memory from what they’ve told me, but I swear I can actually remember it happening.

I have children born pre 2007 and I can assure you I’d never have left them in that manner. I do recall being offered the “listening service” in 1998 for my 1 year old son at the hotel my sisters wedding reception was at. But the room door would at least have been locked in that scenario- not that I’d have dreamt of leaving my baby alone while I went and partied.
Maybe what happened to poor MM made some things other people had thought okay previously when on holiday not okay after that- just from the knowledge of it. As I do think I was seen as “overprotective” back in the early 00s when doing things that are far more mainstream now like cosleeping and baby wearing and being more child led.

When I was a child (mid 80s) my parents used to leave my baby brother asleep in the hire car parked on the road outside restaurant and used to send us (older kids) out every 15 or 20 minutes just to check in case he'd woken up.

But this is MN, where people take their dc with them to pay for petrol, and take it in turns in a couple to have a drink when in charge of dc. In truth,considering most normal people I know I think they would have prob been ok with doing this. It’s so easy to say with hindsight that it’s outrageous (which it is when you actually think about it). Nothing like this had ever happened before that I can remember. I have a clear memory of being left completely unattended with much younger siblings when I was about 5/6 in the day time by a pool on holiday (which my dm now denies ).

As a child in the 70's who became a mother in the 90's, no it wasnt normal. The only people who did it were judged, and harshly

My parents wouldn't have done it in the 70's either! Even though it was perhaps more the norm then.

My son was born in 2004 and it was most definitely unacceptable even then. I do think this is a class thing. If the McCanns had been on benefits, the narrative would have been very different.

These threads surprise me for a number of reasons. If someone had started a thread asking if they were unreasonable to leave a child in a car while paying for fuel the thread would be 90% posters telling them yes, they are. But apparently it's fine to leave your kids unattended while you go drinking with your mates on holiday.

Ivykaty, I was just wondering what your point was when you said you could see the apartment from the tapas bar. I was wondering if that made it ok to leave a child on its own.

No we never did it. My son is the same age as Madeline and we were in Portugal at the time Madeleine went missing.

Even before it happened my mum was stressing when I put him down for a nap in the bedroom and we sat around the pool in the same Villa (in its own grounds) just in case somebody came in through the window and took him away even though shutters were down and the window was closed.

We would never ever leave our child alone while we went out. He either came out in the buggy with us or we stayed at home and drank wine there.