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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you would support a second referendum and what would you vote?

350 replies

questabellatreetop · 13/03/2019 23:03

As the title says really, along with whether or not your vote would be different from last time.

OP posts:
Mookatron · 14/03/2019 15:02

mummymeister in a second referendum I would accept a leave with WA result. I'd prefer remain. This is a different question.

By using the term remoaners you make yourself look like an easily influenced parrot with no imagination of your own. Just saying.

Weetabixandshreddies · 14/03/2019 15:03

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/28/eu-quietly-seizing-control-members-finances/

Over the winter, as Westminster argued about how and when to leave the EU, a vital development in Brussels went virtually unnoticed. Having failed for years to persuade sufficient Member States that the EU should become a fiscal union, in the days before Christmas the European Commission announced its intention that the EU, nevertheless, is in effect about to become just that.

Drawing on legal developments since the 1990s, the evidence tells us this became a two-pronged strategy following the UK referendum in 2016. The first part involves expanding the definition of State aid to increasingly include domestic taxation generally; the second, announced over Christmas, aims to remove the national veto over tax policy itself.

Given the broadly settled definition of State aid (the selective use of state resources to give companies competition-distorting advantages), this had been relatively little debated over the last decade. That began to change in the autumn, as the Withdrawal Agreement de facto committed the UK to harmonised State aid rules but without representation in the bodies that make them.

In this context, the impact of changes to the rules on what constitutes State aid is now becoming apparent. After the Commission failed over the last decade to get Member States to allow harmonised domestic taxation, EU institutions broadened the definition of State aid, which we note achieves a similar goal. The role of the ECJ, whose jurisdiction this will expand, has been crucial. In a recent Spanish case, World Duty Free Group SA vs Commission, it resolved to prohibit a policy treating overseas and domestic share acquisitions differently, with the same process clear in other cases. This means moving from a policy which had prevented ‘selective’ advantages, to one that will likely prevent tax cuts that might make sectors more competitive, or indeed other tax cuts.

Lacking representation, the UK is now liable to be a particular target under the Withdrawal Agreement, giving the Commission the means to do grave harm to the economy of a leading competitor.

The next revelation, directly targeting domestic tax policy, appeared over Christmas. The UK Government position had always been that under the EU law-making system, while the Commission alone may propose legislation, the Council (representing Member States) would retain national vetoes. This has been gradually abolished since 2000, however, to be replaced by Qualified Majority Voting (QMV), the veto remaining only for (most) tax issues. Now a consultation released by the Commission just before Christmas tells us that the EU’s main law-making body intends to scrap this last bastion of the national veto.

The proposal describes how the Commission Work Programme for 2019 will “streamline” decision-making, for “more efficient” tax law, by “removing the need for unanimous agreement by all countries”. The rationale is that with “no effective Single Market in taxation”, this contribution to President Juncker’s “Agenda for Jobs, Growth, Fairness and Democratic Change” will “give renewed momentum to the EU”.

As a non-legislative initiative, the change will not need the approval of the other EU institutions; given that Treaty change is not required, approval from all Member State governments will also not be necessary.

This drastic change is thus likely to happen, and already seems intended to lead to tax rises. The Commission could not help but make this clear in its consultation, stating that QMV is necessary because smaller Member States’ lower corporate taxes to attract investment equal “fiscal dumping” – or what others call worthwhile competition.

Smaller EU members are reacting with shock. With the lowest company taxation in the EU, at 9 and 12.5 percent, Hungary and Ireland, among others, have reason to fear an enforced loss of competitiveness. But as our research at European free-market think tank network Epicenter outlines, many will see that as exactly the point. The change is supported by France and Germany, where it is hard not to perceive a (short-term) advantage in smaller neighbours’ weakened capacity to out-compete relatively high-tax economies.

Spiderbanana · 14/03/2019 15:05

Except for the UK it would seem which cannot leave because of the GFA, it would appear.

There is nothing stopping the UK from leaving the EU.

But there are consequences. We would screw up Northern Ireland in the process, put the people of Gibraltar in a difficult position, put ports under pressure, risk import and export problems, cause massive problems for UK citizens living in the EU and lose EU citizens living in the UK, often doing jobs which are cruical.

Freedom to do something doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of your actions.

The GFA stopped terrorist attacks in mainland Britain as well as in NI. For me, that alone is a good enough reason to remain.

Weetabixandshreddies · 14/03/2019 15:06

@Spiderbanana

Can you assure me that Telegraph article isn't correct then?

The EU cannot implement changes in that way?

Roomba · 14/03/2019 15:07

Yes, I'd support another referendum. The situation is different now to three years ago and we have a lot more information about the intricacies involved and the impact on us if we leave. And I'd vote Remain again.

mummymeister · 14/03/2019 15:09

bellinisurge All referendums are advisory. Did you not realise this? The politicians could have easily just not gone with it but almost every MP - most of whom are still sitting in the House now - voted to trigger A50. They didn't have to. but then they decided that there was more "political capital" in talking about "respect for the will of the British people" than now.

so what would go on a second referendum? again no one in parliament is going to be able to agree this either.

this is now really an issue about politicians putting country before party. if Labour and some tories didn't want Brexit why did they vote to trigger A50?

If we delay Brexit now beyond the 29th March businesses will be in deep shit.

as for the irish border question, tell me, who is going to build this wall?

Not the tories - they cant because of the GF Agreement
Not the NI - ditto
Not Ireland - ditto
and apparently not the EU.

its a bloody smokescreen. None of them, no one is going to put a hard border in Ireland. Unless Trump does it it wont happen.

Its the EU that wants the border because of the loss of income and protectionism. No one else. Just them.

bellinisurge · 14/03/2019 15:11

No they aren't all advisory. There's a legal difference between advisory and normal referenda.

bellinisurge · 14/03/2019 15:12

"Unless Trump does it it wont happen. "

What is that utter shite supposed to mean?

mummymeister · 14/03/2019 15:13

….and every single person on here who wants a second referendum says

… and I would vote remain again

Fridakahlofan · 14/03/2019 15:13

I’d vote remain again.

If leave had not won they would be campaigning for a second referendum - a second referendum is democratic.

People will say well why not have a third.... fourth referendum then.... fine by me in a sensible number of years’ time!

Just like general elections - people change their minds and situations evolve over time

mummymeister · 14/03/2019 15:14

bellinisurge who is going to build the hard border?

RomanyQueen1 · 14/03/2019 15:15

I didn't vote and wouldn't vote again. I think the outcome would be the same though.

FenellaMaxwell · 14/03/2019 15:17

@Spiderbanana YOU ARE SAYING THE SAME THING AS ME Confused

Trying2bemum · 14/03/2019 15:17

Yes and would vote remain again

We didn't know what we were voting for the first time - there was no clear plan or deal for leaving. That's why I think a second referendum is democratic and makes complete sense. We now actually have some idea of what we're voting for.

Spiderbanana · 14/03/2019 15:18

mummymeister

TBH there is nothing which fucks me off more than "remoaners"

We are not contesting the result of a football match. We are not sore losers.

We are people who passionately believe that Brexit will be bad for us, our families and our country.

This is the biggest constitutional change in most of our lifetimes and your level of discourse is "we won, you lost"

FFS

luckylavender · 14/03/2019 15:18

Vote Remain again & I would do it in a heartbeat.

bellinisurge · 14/03/2019 15:18

If you want to comply long term with WTO obligations you need some sort of customs apparatus. At present there is no technological solution that allows that to be done without infrastructure. Even an ANPR camera is infrastructure.
In the short term, in an emergency, you don't have to have anything in order to comply with WTO. Eventually there will need to be. As the E.U. have admitted.
I have said all along that NI should be a special economic area with a border , in effect, in the Irish Sea. But the DUP object to this. Or rather objected. But now they seem to be in favour. Or rather , less against it than they were.
Your love for Mr Trump May be all in vain.

Roomba · 14/03/2019 15:19

I do see how a repeat referendum could be said to be just as invalid as the first, its all a giant mess whatever we do at this point. Perhaps a referendum requiring a 2/3 majority would be better - I think we should have done that in the first place tbh. Such a massive upheaval to our society should require overwhelming support, not be a close call.

SteelRiver · 14/03/2019 15:19

Yes, I would most definitely support a 2nd referendum, now that we know there was so much lying and manipulation going on first time. I think we have also been given a glimpse of what it would be like outside the EU; I've already experienced my much needed medication being out of stock.

I haven't changed my opinion at all, I'd vote to remain.

mummymeister · 14/03/2019 15:20

Is there anyone on here or in RL who voted to leave who wants a second referendum?

Nope - didn't think so.

Trying2bemum don't use the word we when you mean I. I knew what I was voting for. You might not have done.

And again the only people saying:

we didn't know what we were voting for are remainers.

Its like a mantra. along with

I would vote remain again

Roomba · 14/03/2019 15:23

I've spoken to several people (colleagues, family) who voted Leave but now feel another referendum is needed. They all state they weren't really told anything about what was involved and what issues it would create. Or they feel that they were outright lied to and would vote very differently had they been aware of how they'd been manipulated. So they do exist.

Spiderbanana · 14/03/2019 15:24

FenellaMaxwell

Well shit!

You are right! Looks like all of my stuff should have been addressed to
@MadameMim

FenellaMaxwell you are a lady (or gentleman) and a scholar and I couldn't agree with you more Grin

mummymeister · 14/03/2019 15:25

Roomba get them signed up to MN and onto this thread then because so far not one person who voted leave and who has posted on here or in fact on other MN "Breixt" threads has said this.

RomanyQueen1 · 14/03/2019 15:25

Please look at this
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/02/roma-communities-fear-deportation-in-post-brexit-britain

These are EU citizens, who have worked here, doing many jobs we don't want to do.

mummymeister · 14/03/2019 15:27

Brexit not Breixt.

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