AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

Well, OP and anyone who demands guaranteed single sex spaces: that ship has sailed. No teacher, Scout leader, activity leader can guarantee biological-female spaces only, as they are not allowed to divulge who is or isn't transgender.

So your daughters can never do any of those trips, I don't think

It's all a bit of a mess, really, with trans kids and girls caught up in the middle

Wouldn’t it solve the sleep over problem if the brownies/guides went back to being a single sex organsisation, and didn’t allow boys to join? None of these boys can even have a GRC so to call them “girls” is a meaningless term.

As has been said a few times on this thread, it is legal to have separate sex areas for sleeping, changing etc. The people who are saying it’s illegal are wrong or misguided.

Ask your DH’s and DPs, Would they prefer their is it OK 9 year old Daughter to go to

A) a cubs sleepover planned as mixed sex with appropriately safeguarded arrangements for sleeping, changing and toiletting.

B) a Brownie sleepover, planned for girls without separate toiletting facilities, that secretly, could include men, adolescents or boys, because no one is allowed to tell parents if anyone with a penis at any age is present.

OP a poster upthread said they are a lawyer specialising in equality and discrimination. Might be worth a PM to them to see if they would help you word a letter to brownies HQ explaining (again) that your daughter has protected characteristics and is entitled to the protection of the equality act but is being excluded. I would also ask for the details of their insurers, insurance companies are very very interested in safeguarding issues as there are a lot of historic abuse cases at the moment and they are keen to avoid future cases. An enquiry about the cover that would be provided should an assault occur might be helpful.

I would also consider contacting some of the GC press (on the proviso that you and your daughter remains anonymous).

This cannot be allowed to continue, or at least not without open and honest safeguarding policies.

at least not without open and honest safeguarding policies

This ^^

I don't understand why its such a big ask

lexiloo

That’s me - I don’t think that GG are breaking the law by allowing trans girls in. It’s just that hibble was wrong to say they are legally obliged to.

If they aren't allowing male children who are NOT undergoing gender reassignment, they ARE breaking the law.

I don't think YABu at all for being sad. Sad as it is, I think you've made the right call.

Girlguiding residentials are not safe because they aren't properly risk assessed. Guide leaders are very good at assessing risk usually but they've been explicitly told NOT to consider anything trans related as a safeguarding issue. They would rather kick out leaders like me who ask about safeguarding than acknowledge the risk.

Girlguiding acknowledges in its own policy that transgirls are legally male (sex) yet still calls itself a single sex organisation. There is still nothing on the consent form that says that accommodation is not guaranteed to be single sex. So many parents aren't able to make an informed choice because they naturally assume it will be single sex.

I'm quite shocked at how many posters think girls don't need single sex spaces or should have to justify their choice. Being comfortable with a situation doesn't change the risk and one person's consent to mixed sex spaces cannot be transferred to someone else. Who gets to decide what's a justifiable reason for wanting a single sex space? Where would the bar be set?

Not shocked to see the "trans hate" comments though, sadly. Raising issues of safeguarding in mixed sex / same gender spaces isn't hateful. To dismiss it is such is dishonest, not least because trans kids seem to be routinely taken out of safeguarding altogether.

Yes there's a peculiar distinction being made here isn't there?

one boy says he's a boy but likes the activities offered by Brownies more than Scouts so would like to join, but is told no, because he's a boy.

Another boy says he wants to be a girl, so he's allowed in.

???

You're just not letting her go because of the minute risk of a trans kid who is also an 8 year old predator assaulting your child in a marquee full of other kids and supervised by the people you leave her with every week already? Poor kid

You could always get a dbs check and volunteer to help

@drspouse

You mean by discriminating against the boys? Sorry, I wasn’t clear in my post but I mean I don’t think the OP’s daughter has a claim as suggested by the PP.

*one boy says he's a boy but likes the activities offered by Brownies more than Scouts so would like to join, but is told no, because he's a boy.

Another boy says he wants to be a girl, so he's allowed in*

I think GGHQ could be on a sticky wicket there. There is a case that the comparator for a Male child with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is a male who doesn't have the PC of gender reassignment, NOT a female.

This has been pointed out to them, as have the U.N. rights of the child, the rights of children with other protected characteristics. All ignored. It's like they want to be sued.

I wish GGHQ published membership numbers. With this and the new programme, it's just a very different organisation to even 5 years ago.

Also, for everyone who has DC in Scouts:

Scouting was advised by Mermaids.

Scouting insists that everyone has a gender identity and promotes the idea of living in one's true gender.

Scouting insists that single sex tents have never been a requirement (although it's very common in practice).

Scouting requires that trans children of either sex use the facilities of their acquire gender. So you can have a boys tent containing Male and female children, and a girls tent containing female and male children.

Scouting also doesn't make this clear to parents before they send their children away.

So you can have a boys tent containing Male and female children, and a girls tent containing female and male children.

What if a scout master/mistress/adult person identifies as a female [or says he does]? Would he then sleep sleep/change etc with the females?

Scouting also doesn't make this clear to parents before they send their children away

Yes

Another 'recent' change

sackrifice

When dh was a cub leader they didnt sleep or change with the children

Course in this brave new workd of not telling parents stuff that may have changed

As someone who was sexually assaulted at infant and junior school by another boy. I think all those in favour of allowing mixed sex sleeping are deluded...!! it happens.. if you were lucky enough to not have this happen to you please learn from others experience and protect your children.

surviving

A good friend of mine was raped (forced to have sex) by a boy she knew at a mixed sleepover when she was 12. She never told an adult or her parents but the girls around her knew it was happening and she got called a slag for it at school.

God 2019 that’s shocking
There seem to be some younger women on this thread (and forum) or are very blasé about giving up the rights of women that have been so hard fought for.
Girls have a right to privacy and dignity as well as a right to safety. If you are happy for this to be happening then you aren’t a very good parent frankly.

OP I suggest you either remove her from brownies and find another activity for her to do that you feel is safer for her and her needs, or volunteer to go along on the trip. That way you can sleep next to your daughter and ensure her safety as best you can.

Aimee, who didn't inform the green party about her fathers arrest and court case. One of the others is a furry and/or adult baby. Neither of which I would want near my children.

Aimee of course is still a member of Stonewall's trans advisory panel. Stonewall advised GG on its trans policy.

I don't have an issue because Aimee is trans, I have a problem with being told to implement policy drafted and influenced by people who have NO concept or understanding of safeguarding.

It's not just girls either; on GG's trans policy webpages, safeguarding is only mentioned in the context of bullying or harassment from other children. Nothing about physical risks of binding while doing activities, for example, or mention of the huge role of the internet for many trans kids and that some may be in touch with adult strangers online without their parents knowledge.

With this and the new programme, it's just a very different organisation to even 5 years ago
Yy I agree with this. I worked with them a decade ago. We were completely on top of safeguarding and risk assessments. Most people on here saying it's fine, have no idea how detailed and extensive safeguarding planning is and the GGs used to be amongst the best at it. But, then used to know the difference between sex and gender too

Girls have a right to privacy and dignity as well as a right to safety.

Agreed. In fact EVERYONE has these rights.

If you are happy for this to be happening then you aren’t a very good parent frankly.

If you're referring to the previous poster saying their friend was raped at 12 then I can't imaging that ANYBODY is happy with that happening.

If you're referring to the OP's post then I would be happy to have sent my step daughter on this sleepover (presuming she wanted to go and had no concerns herself)