AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

i feel sorry for this generation of girls.
When I was in GG, being single sex meant girls from some backgrounds were able to gain a freedom and participate in activities that they would not be allowed to do if it was mixed.

To accommodate a few (who could go into scouting), they have taken away from so many. It is a sad state of affairs.

To accommodate a few (who could go into scouting), they have taken away from so many. It is a sad state of affairs.

Surely the same could be said for the scouts?

What a shame you will miss out on lots of freinds due to your lack of communications skills!

OP has explained her specific, non negotiable reason for having to make this decision!

PBo83, if your looking from a cultural angle, then no. Girls can have many more limits placed on them as to what they can do compared to boys.

We live in the UK, we are a multicultural society. Enabling inclusion rather than exclusion is a good thing, and it’s now gone backwards.

Could your DD participate during the day and then be picked up by you before the sleeping part? You could provide any reason for this choice. @Only13percentleft

I realise this isn't a long term solution and perhaps not even practical. Only way to mitigate the result of the mixed sex policy of GG.

@Only13percentleft sorry if I missed this but have you directly communicated with GG?
I don't ask because I think they'll help but because I'd love to hear what they say!

I feel sorry for this generation of boys and girls if their parents are giving them the impression that sleeping next to another 8 year old child in a well supervised marquee puts them at risk of rape. What a horrible, inaccurate lesson you're imparting.

It's not just about that ffs

Girls want to change in front of people who have the same body as they do.

As do boys.

And neither should have to prove some kind of trauma or abuse to be able to get it.

Safeguarding policies should he written by people with experience in the field and who have the best interests of people at heart

Not by people who have been found by external authorities to have no concept of safe guarding what so ever and/or are slowly but surely being found to have less than savoury back grounds

But go ahead and mock,.you wont be laughing when its your child gaslit and groomed to benefit men.

My DD and DS were both in cubs and their group had mixed sleeping as there were mixed sixes. They felt it was important to treat everyone the same.
I am not sure about scouts though ( they left before scouts) as I would assume it would be less likely to happen as they got older.
I had no problem with it .

Yes but Cubs were open and honest about being mixed.

That is not remotely the same thing.

They werent told someone was a girl then confronted with a penis in the shower.

I feel sorry for this generation of boys and girls if their parents are giving them the impression that sleeping next to another 8 year old child in a well supervised marquee puts them at risk of rape. What a horrible, inaccurate lesson you're imparting

This isn't what we are saying. We are acknowledging that there is a risk of child-on-child assault and its increasingly well documented and discussed in the media. Have a look at BBC news for reports on tape and sexual assaults in schools.

We are also saying that:

• consensual activity (if the kids are old enough to give consent) can still cause problems, not least unwanted pregnancy. The risks can be managed but only if it's acknowledged that a group is mixed sex, whether teens or even younger.

• girls and boys have the right to assert their own boundaries especially when it comes to who they are undressing or sleeping next to.

• privacy and dignity is just as important as safety. For many people, that means single sex spaces. Changing clothes and dealing with periods is a huge worry for many girls on GG events, even when it was single sex. That worry is heightened if the girl doesn't know if males will be there. The girl may chose not to go than risk her dignity.

• gender reassignment is not the only protected characteristic and no one PC trumps another. Some girls (or their parents insist) on a single sex space for cultural or religious reasons. I may not agree or believe in that faith but I can't insist that the girls' needs aren't met.

• girls are not able to voice their concerns because they fear being labelled bigots or transphobes and being ostracised from the group. So they just stop going.

I give in!

So many posters refusing to engage with the reasons why some, OP included, will not, cannot send a child to a sleep over activity when the single sex basis cannot be guaranteeed... in a girls organisation to boot.

The point is that some, some children will have less than perfect lives and will need extra care and consideration if they are to grow into well adjusted adults.

Apart from the obvious - why has there ever been any single sex proivision of anything, ever? Why does the law still allow single sex provision?

The point is that single sex activities are NOT AGAINST ANY LAW

The point is that GG has obfuscated again and again on the issue and cannot bring itself to say "Yes, we have changed. In order to be more inclusive we are now mixed sex"

The point is bloody safeguarding and informed consent should not be a matter of choice, fashion or feelings.

Those of you who say things like both in cubs and their group had mixed sleeping as there were mixed sixes. They felt it was important to treat everyone the same. had a choice, used information available, infomration they could rely on and made a decision based on honest, truthful, transparent information..

OP is unable to do that! Why?

'Girlguiding are following UK law regarding transgender individuals, as they are obliged to do legally. Transgender people are not the bogey men that this forum likes to paint them as.'

This ^

Teach her tolerance and let her go on the trip. She'll be fine. Unless someone has stats of sexual assaults committed by brownies?

Which law obliges them to permit transgender girls @gucciday?

Please refer directly to the section of the Equality Act or such other statute you may mean which you rely on.

I think that GG has been clear that it is a trans-inclusive group. I don't think it has tried to hide that. I'm sure they realise that this will mean that some families who object to the inclusion of trans people will leave. That's a decision every family gets to make.

It isn't fair to say they aren't giving out information, though. They have been very clear about their stance.

Equality and diversity McTufty GG explain it all here

As stomp says GG are very transparent with their guidelines. The op can keep her dd away or choose whether to teach her dd how to be inclusive and tolerant.

Unless someone has stats of sexual assaults committed by brownies?
You missed the stats upthread about sexual assaults committed by bits of primary school age?

Stompy are you the parent of a Guide or Rainbow or Brownie, or a leader?
If so, when and how did GG communicate to you that boys who identify as girls need do nothing more than say "I'm a girl" (and the same for men who say they are women), to join GG?
If not, how did you become aware of this? On MN? Through a large campaign of publicIty by GG? When Agnes was expelled?

GG are very transparent with their guidelines
Are they?
How have they let parents and leaders know about them?
How have they publicised recent changes?
How have they told parents that (today at least) girls can decide what sex the children at a unit sleepover they will share with, but not at a large scale event?

Gucci day, that isn’t law that you have linked to there. That’s GG Statement. GG don’t make laws.
In England, laws are made by parliament. They are interpreted by courts, some of which have the power to set binding precedent.
Now try again. Which laws oblige GG to act in this way?

Sorry gucciday but that isn’t law and says nothing about what they’re legally obliged to do.

The actual law is section 7 and section 13 of the Equality Act, which obliges GG not to treat any person less favourably for being transgender. So a trans girl can’t be treated less favourably than a natal boy. It doesn’t oblige GG to treat trans girls the same as girls.

If necessary paragraph 28 to schedule 3 to the Equality Act provides a single sex exemption.

From 10 years as lawyer in Equality and discrimination that’s my understanding of the law. If you think I’m wrong show me where by reference to actual law.

It’s a newish area of law and if I’ve missed something I’m happy to be told but so far no one has been able to show me where.

Have your opinion as to what should happen by all means but please don’t pass it off as a legal requirement.

“Teach her dd to be inclusive and tolerant”
Submit to indoctrination, child. What do you mean you won’t? You’re scared, upset, feeling your privacy is being invaded? BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT!!
Am I getting this right Gucci? Do tell us all how it’s done.

Its called girl guiding.

I doubt many look to deeply I to it besides asking where their nearest park is.

Theres not a single picture of anyone but girls

Constant references to girls and daughters

I don't know anyone who knows.

Nor do people probably realise what a transgirl is . And most likely would assume they quid be charged going separately if they Did.

They would be changing

Stupid phone

Actually don’t. Your previous statements were quite chilling enough.