AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

No, one of which could be a trans woman.

Or a man pretending to be trans. Which is the point.

It sounds very much as though OP is using her DD to make a political point about how wicked and dangerous transpeople are

Men. The issue is men.

It isn't just about the risk of rape either. It's about privacy and dignity.

There are plenty of 10 year old girls who are going through puberty and would be horrified at having to share sleeping arrangements and changing facilities with boys. And before you start, from a biological and legsl point of view, any trans girl there is a boy as they are too young to have legally and physically transitioned.

Then there's the issue of religious girls who can't share these spaces because of religious and cultural reasons. Girls who have suffered from sexual trauma in the past.

All of these girls are important.

*legal.

As someone who used to work in a field involving sex offenders, I’d say the op is not catastrophising and I would do the same in her shoes.
The world is not I’m afraid the lovely fluffy nice place full of well intentioned people that some here think it is. Sad but true. Single sex spaces came about for good reasons.

Thinking about my previous post and the new world we seem to be in, I'm going to flip the statements made to the OP that I listed in my previous post.

If we were only five years' back. Imagine the same OP parent is insisting their daughter should be in mixed-sex space. Would parents be saying the following things?

You are using your daughter to make a point. You need her to be in mixed-sex sleeping space

You are using her to demonstrate your political beliefs. Your belief in her need for mixed sex spaces is unjustifiable.

OP parents like you (who are concerned about their daughter's privacy, dignity and safety) are the very reason I gave up helping at Brownies

And surely, five years' ago, organisations such as Brownies' would have been saying these things (modified from earlier posts):

[We recognise from evidence]..the risk of assault by a person of any male genital arrangement in a marquee full of kids may be present.

Someone who is so judgmental and clearly dismissive of individual children' your daughter's particular needs should not be helping at brownies

They will be in a large group and everyone regardless of what genitals they have will have been vetted thoroughly we know from so many examples we need to implement safeguarding procedures

All the children were of Primary school age, and had there been a man present who was 'pretending' to be a woman with the sole intention of getting his hands on a girl, he would have had no chance we've seen so many examples that there is a risk, we're going to implement the new safeguarding procedures.

When your child grows up, will she live and work in a single sex environment ? You don't seem very accepting/tolerant of other people Of course she won't, so we need to grow her confidence in being able to know and describe her boundaries.

The goalposts seem to have not only have been moved, but to have been completely flipped over.

I understand the concern overall however it definitely feels like you’re using your dd to make a political point.

I'm another one who won't let my DS take part in overnight activities which advertise they are single gender but in reality are mixed-sex. This is because I think it's a massive safeguarding red flag to have adults in charge of children who fudge the issues and who don't make it clear to parents that the sleeping accommodation will be mixed-sex. I don't trust those adults, not because I believe they are necessarily predatory themselves, but because I think they are bloody ignorant and I cannot trust in their ability to keep my DS safe.

Of course this issue is political, but the statement I've quoted has it the wrong way around: the safeguarding issues are part of the reason I've become political about this issue.

I respect the OP's choices - her daughter should be able to be in a girl only area.

Personally, I'm not remotely bothered.

All I can say is girls only camps were the only places I ever encountered any pressure on anyone to perform slightly uncomfortable acts (guides). All mine didscouts!!

I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's about balancing risk and the risks are very small and benefits will be great. I don't really get the hysteria though.

Well - to be fair you daughter can still attend the event. It is your morals and beliefs that are restricting her, not the guiding organisation saying she can't go.

As others have posted, I understand your concerns and POV, but I certainly do not agree with them.

YANBU

The homophobia displayed in the “lesbians are the same as males” comments is really offensive.

"The four reasons the OP gave - there’s only one that I’d accept as s valid reason and that’s the foster daughter who isn’t allowed to go by the LA."

Jesus! You wouldn't accept "previously a victim" as a good enough reason?!

And again - rape is not the only form of abuse!

As for

"children being raped at primary age... yes, I’m aware it happens. Is the OP’s dd never able to come into contact with a boy just in case a rape occurs?" Contact with boys is one thing, being put in a position of not having the risk of potential abuse properly assessed and safeguarded against (as it is in schools, eg by adult supervision) is quite another.

"It isn't just about the risk of rape either. It's about privacy and dignity" hear hear

"The goalposts seem to have not only have been moved, but to have been completely flipped over." Totally agree! Massive overtones of 1984 and "newspeak" and "memory holes" I Fucking despair!

"The homophobia displayed in the “lesbians are the same as males” comments is really offensive."

ReanimatedSGB I generally like your posts but find your post on here hugely disappointing.

Wanting our children to be safe and supporting genuine trans people is not and should not be mutually exclusive.

Unfortunately not all trans people are genuine or without ulterior motives - as has already been proven.

Of course this issue is political, but the statement I've quoted has it the wrong way around: the safeguarding issues are part of the reason I've become political about this issue

This!

The politics of this situation is precisely the safeguarding of children. I don't politically disapprove of an organisation being sly about its lack of safeguarding and then send my child to a sleepover with it?

As others have pointed out, openly mixed-sex organisations have proper safeguarding, but we are talking about an organisation that is mixed sex with safeguarding for single-sex and the idea that any boy who wants to be a girl is a saint.

Also presumably adults are present anyway Adults like David Balloo Challenor?

transcrimeuk.com/2018/08/22/david-challenor/

I understand the issue of "not having the risk of potential abuse properly assessed and safeguarded" but I'm not sure that simply having a mixed sex sleepover is evidence that this has not occurred - as people have said cubs/scouts etc have missed sex sleepovers - do people not think that this is properly assessed - or is it the lack of evidence that this has been done/
I'm not sure gg has been secret about the change or sly

That's one huge chip on your shoulder scissorlover, or is it just virtue signalling?

I love men and boys but I still know why we have to have single-sex spaces and proper safeguarding. But if you have read any of the very cogent arguments here, particularly the one where there are some children, like the OP's, who cannot be allowed to go to a mixed sleep-over, you have not wanted to understand anything.

If that remark is evidence of your capacity to weight different points of view and assess risk, scissorlover, hope to god you’re not a parent. It’s a serious job.
Archery Annie is spot on. The approach to these issues GG is taking demonstrates that they too are not serious. I don’t trust the daft and dishonest to look after children. It’s really quite simple.

I'm not sure I'd trust Scouts either, unless I knew the leader didn't think TWAW.

All those taking the piss, would you.let your dds share a room.on residential at school? Shall the Male teachers just walk on in without knocking? I mean the risk.is tiny and they have all been DBS checked. Do they need to have been assaulted or abused before its deemed ok to not wanna undress in front of boys?

Would you allow your dds to be uncomfortable to prove your point.

Luckily the Male teachers at dds school are all.lovely and never just walked in. They also didn't assume we thought they were predators when telling us they would not be entering the girls dorm and assuring us a female teacher will be going to. They didnt go round with some check list deciding who they can walk in on based on acceptable criteria

Don’t send her, OP. She will be gang raped by trans boys.#

Trans boys don't have penises, as they are female.

That's what the 'trans' bit is about.

She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation - No, you need her to be in single sex accommodation.

That's not an unreasonable line for a parent to draw. The risk in an individual situation will certainly be low, but how can a parent know exactly what arrangements will be?

What concerns me most is the attitude to safeguarding this policy implies. A blanket policy of never having single sex accomodation suggests they have a blind spot.

Can those taking the piss articulate the reason for having mixed sex spaces in the first place?

And then explain how gender identity has anything at all to do with it?

Im honestly flummoxed at some of the attitudes

Even the most positive 'guides should be mixed sex and i agree that parents should not be told if it is' must surely have a degree of sympathy for a child who MIGHT not be allowed to go because of looked after child safeguards or MIGHT not be able to go as they have been raped/sexually assaulted and it would be detrimental to come across a male when she doesnt expect to

And lots of posters are explaining that an adult male could be there and the parents not told

Im well aware of adult male helpers and parents are told about them...but if they identify as a woman parents wont be told

And again, like many others on here ...my 3 did beavers and cubs so ive no issue with mixxed sex events and camps

Mine have gone on these trips. They love them and come back very happy. Its simply not somwthing that bothers me. I will not let fear run mine and my kids lives.