AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

The leaders wouldn’t be sleeping with the Brownies though
They can and do. Not in Scouting but they do in Guiding.

She CAN go. You won’t let her because you’re exploiting your own dd to make a point nobody cares about. Nobody cares whether she goes or not, apart from her. And all they’ll think is ‘poor girl has a bonkers mum’, not ‘people feel strongly and we need to rethink’.

Any risk is in your imagination. These are 7-10 year old kids.

No leader will be sleeping alone with the children. There will always be more than one leader at night.

Yabu for sending your daughter to brownies / girl guides full stop.

Any risk is in your imagination. These are 7-10 year old kids.

Girls are being raped by other kids in primary schools. Are you that naive?

No leader will be sleeping alone with the children. There will always be more than one leader at night.

One of which could be a man, but nobody will be allowed to let the parents know this.

idonotlike

So what did you think of the 4 reasons the OP gave which were potential explanations for dd not being able to go

See although i think all 4 were good reasons, there were two potential reasons which i think explains perfectly why the OP doesn't feel her dd can go

Drspouse is correct, guiding leaders can sleep in with the girls and I would expect that to happen at a large scale sleepover like the op is talking about. Normally in a hall, we would sleep in a different room, but in a large marque, we would all be in together.
Op, as a Girlguiding leader, we’ve been told not to discuss this issue, but as a brownie parent, I’m going to say I agree with you. Girlguiding policy is the same for rainbows (age 5-7) or rangers (age 14+) so I don’t think it’s good enough that people are saying ‘they are only brownies, of course 8 year olds are fine sleeping in mixed groups’. It also doesn’t matter what the scouts do. They are a completely different organisation and parents are well aware that they are a mixed sex group. What is important is that girls have been signed up to gg because parents think we are a single sex organisation and this is not actually the case anymore.

If volunteering isn't feasible could you perhaps get a hotel nearby so she could join in with the day activities? I realise your point is you shouldn't have to but I'm just trying to help out in a tricky situation. I remember my parents doing a similar thing for my sister.

As brownies and girl guides we camped with scouts a number of times. And I had mixed sex sleepovers at that age too I’ve always had my male friends as well as my female ones, I don’t see the big deal but I’m sure someone will be a long soon to tell me I’m just wrong

Any risk is in your imagination

WOW! Another who's COMPLETELY missed the DOCUMENTED cases of sexual abuse occurring within this age group, that's not just blinkers!

That's blinkers AND a blindfold AND ear plugs AND singing "la la la not listening not watching the news or reading newspapers or reports by those DEALING WITH THE VICTIMS"

"Girls are being raped by other kids in primary schools. Are you that naive?" And that's the most extreme cases. Abuse doesn't always mean rape, there's any number of actions that can have a devastating effect on victims that don't include rape.

And I had mixed sex sleepovers at that age too I’ve always had my male friends as well as my female ones, I don’t see the big deal but I’m sure someone will be a long soon to tell me I’m just wrong

It's not that you are wrong. It is that a risk assessment that is done, and measure put in place for mixed sex is completely different to a risk assessment done and measures put in place for single sex.

And why is this?

[If you don't know] males are an inherent danger to females.

I know, right!

98% of sexual assaults are committed by males.

Which is one of the reasons that we have separation by sex in the first place.

If you are running activities including sleep overs with a risk assessment that assumes all the people are females, it is a different risk to if some are males, and it is especially a risk if some are males and nobody is allowed to know.

Is this really so hard to grasp?

Fuck me sideways - it's as if so many people have literally never heard of men and the risk that they pose to women and girls.

I am beyond dumbfounded at the utter hopelessness of females to even identify the biggest threat to them on the planet.

Do some of you never leave the house?

My son goes to scouts. On a sleepover in the scout hut a small tent was erected for the girls to sleep in, one end of the hall, They also had separate toilets. The boys slept in the hall at the other end. So the scouts are very aware of safeguarding.

Exactly because they risk assessed and put mitigations in place.

One wonders at how many girls are being shoved into Brownies and Guides with their parents muttering 'It's fine, it's only a little risk, Nobody likes to make a fuss'.

Well well well OP, you've really ruffled some feathers with this one haven't you?

There are many reasons why DD could need single sex accommodation. As mentioned, it could be for religion, it could be because she’s been a victim of sexual assault, it could be because she’s a foster daughter who has been told by the LA that she must always be in this accommodation, it could be because she just doesn’t feel comfortable. It is one of these reasons but I’m not going into it on a public forum.

Errrm...you've name changed so you're completely anonymous

One of which could be a man

Or, indeed, both of them. Improbable? Yes - I'm very relieved to say. But not impossible.

The four reasons the OP gave - there’s only one that I’d accept as s valid reason and that’s the foster daughter who isn’t allowed to go by the LA.

And that’s only because it’s outside the OP’s control. Even then I’d hope that given the microscopic risk that

A. There is a trans child at the sleepover
B. That trans child is a rapist in disguise posing as a girl in order to rape.
C. The children will be sleeping en masse without an adult present.

As for children being raped at primary age... yes, I’m aware it happens. Is the OP’s dd never able to come into contact with a boy just in case a rape occurs?

one of which could be a man

No, one of which could be a trans woman.

So much prejudice on this thread. Transgender faces the same prejudice that homosexuality used to attract.

Should we say that lesbian brownies and guides shouldn’t attend sleepovers in case they should be tempted to assault their peers?

It sounds very much as though OP is using her DD to make a political point about how wicked and dangerous transpeople are, and how they should be shunned. Because OP has no knowledge of any transpeople being within a mile of this sleepover, yet just in case she's prepared to spoil her daughter's fun, and is probably planning to 'go public' about it so her poor DD doesn't just miss out on her sleepover, but gets to be 'The Brownie with the trans-hating mum', too...

It never ceases to amaze me about what posters KNOW on these threads

Ive always been very open to giving people the benefit of the doubt

Reanimated it might sound less like that to you if you actually read the information about her dd that OP supplied on the first page.

OP's issue isn't trans people, it's that Brownies will not confirm that the camp will be able to meet her dd's needs (and comply to the law) of providing single sex sleeping facilities.

idontlikeyoudonaldtrump that's a ridiculous argument. Lesbian girls have the same body type as non-lesbian girls. There is no law that requires that single-sexuality facilities are provided. The very vast majority of sexual assaults aren't perpetrated by lesbians.

Unless you have proof that lesbians are more likely than heterosexual women to assault women donaldtrump then comparing this to refusing to share with lesbians is a ridiculous analogy.

Lesbians are women and have female anatomy. They have the same right to be in a female space as heterosexual women.

Trans women however are biologically male.

There is also a huge difference between a Trans woman who has underwent gender reassignment and a man who simply identifies as a woman who still has fully male anatomy.

Yanbu.

You are her mum and it is your opinion that matters. I agree with you and my DD won't be joining Brownies for this very reason later this year after I've had her name down for 2 years.