AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

Weetabixandshreddies

You cannot understand a basic concept, your examples range from the bizarre to the frankly fucking ludicrous and you cannot understand basic explanations.

You think teenage girls having a piss up (wonderful supervision by the way, top class!) is comparable to a predator using guidelines to access victims?

Mind you, getting pissed on a trip kind of puts paid to the wailing of "oh but supervision" doesn't it? Because clearly, supervision isn't always effective.

But this Male will be a stranger to everyone thats not in their pack.

So whereas individual people may consent to being ok sharing with selected males. The rest of the people who dont know them arent

So in this situation would you accept a strange Male with your dds or would you expect girls only?

So I should be happy with her sharing a room with 2 girls who brought alcohol on a trip for 14 year olds rather than her 2 male best friends? That seems quite odd

It's not about the individual people and whether or not you like them.

Has anyone stated that Cubs sleep in the same space (if they have, I havn't seen it and it should not happen).
Yes they have. I quoted it above. It's on the 2nd page of the thread if you want to check back.

What is the lesbian guide category that is being expanded?

You do know what the L in LGBT stands for right?

Here is the Scout Guidance:

members.scouts.org.uk/nightsawayfaqs

At the bottom it talks about boys and girls sharing. It says it would be subject to risk assessment and speaking to those involved, but boys and girls can share. But it seems like it's all very open.

I think the point is that because GG still says it's a single sex organisation, these risk assessments and discussions will not happen. And in fact parents are not even allowed to know if there will be a male bodied person in the room with their daughter.

So it's totally different.

And in fact parents are not even allowed to know if there will be a male bodied person in the room with their daughter

Crucially, neither will their daughter.

So she is denied the choice of it being single sex by default.

Surely even the most hard of thinking can understand that?

So I should be happy with her sharing a room with 2 girls who brought alcohol on a trip for 14 year olds rather than her 2 male best friends? That seems quite odd.

Unfortunately you cant segregate by who you don't like, or who you think will be a bad influence on your child. Because it would get way too messy.

You can segregate by sex. Because its nice and easy and has clear safeguarding benefits.

You think teenage girls having a piss up (wonderful supervision by the way, top class!) is comparable to a predator using guidelines to access victims?

The girls in question were caught so yes, it was wonderful supervision. Tbh, what do you expect teachers to do really when the kids sleep on their own?

And the point is not pissed up kids vs attack by a predator but pissed up kids vs sharing with decent boys who didn't put their room mates at risk.

See you are sticking to the girls good boys bad stereotype. And I know you'll come back with namalt etc but it's not about generalisation. It's about risking individual situations. In this case certain boys were much safer than certain girls.

And I don't think being pissed should be so easily brushed off. 1st night at uni the girl in the flat below my dd died from an accident caused by being drunk.

Can boys and girls share accommodation?

Yes they can. This is subject to the Risk Assessment of the Nights Away Permit holder. The Nights Away Permit holder has the ultimate responsibility for the event so it will be their decision. However, this decision must take into consideration the views of the young people and the views of the parents, and give the parents the opportunity to voice any concerns they may have

This is Scouts policy.

No such policy for GG.

It's in direct response to asking if girls and boys can share accommodation.

And the point is not pissed up kids vs attack by a predator but pissed up kids vs sharing with decent boys who didn't put their room mates at risk.

Only in your head. You're coming up with anecdotal examples, which bear absolutely no relevance to the topic under discussion, and actually, if they were caught, there wasn't an issue in the first place was there? Apart from in your own head.

Scouts risk assess and ask the opinions of both children and parents.

GG don't, and have no intention of doing so.

Weetabix in January 2017, the GG's had a LGB category. You know, foregrounding the needs of girls who may be/are lesbian, gay or bisexual.

The 'T' appeared last year now has its own 'special considerations' none of which mention that admitting people with male bodies means that the organisation is no longer single sex.

I can find NOTHING about trans boys in their policies.

So if a current GG identifies as trans, she needs to leave as she will no longer 'be a girl'?

That doesn't really strike me as wanting to support 'all girls' tbh. It's simply turning a single sex organisation into a mixed sex one while pretending that it isn't.

You can segregate by sex. Because its nice and easy and has clear safeguarding benefits.

And how do you safeguard against girls bringing alcohol or encouraging self harm or the benefits of anorexia? All of which we've had happen at school.

about risking individual situations

How, pray tell, can you determine the risk of individual situations without a risk assessment?

I'll wait.

See you are sticking to the girls good boys bad stereotype. And I know you'll come back with namalt etc but it's not about generalisation. It's about risking individual situations. In this case certain boys were much safer than certain girls

Interesting. So you've got 200 children on an overnight. What would you do to assess the risk of each individual?

And then how would you divvy up the accommodation?

And how do you safeguard against girls bringing alcohol or encouraging self harm or the benefits of anorexia? All of which we've had happen at school.

Risk assessments, supervision, open communication and strategies.

Your DDs school sounds shit btw.

That's interesting 101AR. So the Scouts specify that 'considerations about mixed sex accommodation must take into consideration the views of the young people and the views of the parents, and give the parents the opportunity to voice any concerns they may have'.

GG's and their parents/carers don't have this opportunity to express their needs and boundaries because they will not be told that they are sharing mixed sex accommodation.

And how do you safeguard against girls bringing alcohol or encouraging self harm or the benefits of anorexia? All of which we've had happen at school.

Wha?!

What has that got to do with sex segregated spaces? Are you saying that making facilities mixed sex will safeguard against these things?

There are lots of ways in which you can minimise the risks of those things happening, making changing and sleeping facilities mixed sex is not one of these ways.

christinarossetti19 I thought so too.

So girls can join a boys organisation, but there are risk assessments, strategies and consideration given to all the children in a male orientated (by origin) organisation, but no such courtesy afforded to the girls organisation.

It's almost like misogyny isn't it? Oh wait, it is.

And how do you safeguard against girls bringing alcohol or encouraging self harm or the benefits of anorexia? All of which we've had happen at school

Oh but I thought they were all kids

So kids are easily led enough or stupid enough or naughty enough to sneak in alcohol or get influenced by discussions on eating disorders

But not have sex either with or without consent?

Which is it?

It appears the scouts had to risk assess and make policy on the trot, because the number of girls were so low, apparently.

They felt it was even more risky for a girl to be in a tent all by herself, away from the group.

You have to ask yourself why obvs.

And yes, there appears to be very little information. Even the POR which is the rule book, is scant.

So to have their feelings, needs and opinions considered, girls needs to join a traditionally male organisation.

In scouting and GGs own words ffs.

But the impression I'm getting is parents, the girls, and the boys were all told look, this is the situation, what's the best thing to do, do you think?

Not pretending that the situation doesn't exist and if you flag it, you're a bigot.

10IAR
And a minute ago everyone was arguing with me that it girls and boys don't share, same as arguing that all schools have cubicles in the changing rooms.

You're coming up with anecdotal examples, which bear absolutely no relevance to the topic under discussion, and actually, if they were caught, there wasn't an issue in the first place was there? Apart from in your own head.

Yep caught after the girls in the room were already drunk. But hey, the parents should all have been reassured that they were in single sex rooms so nothing to worry about.

Plenty of people have assured the OP that her dd will be kept with her pack so all of the children around her dd will be known to her. She is aware that potentially a trans girl coukd theoretically be there so she can make an informed decision to go or not.

There are no assurances around safety whether it's mixed sex or not. Some of the risks might be different if you mix the sexes others will be the same whether it's boys and girls or girls and girls.

People have been at pains to say this isn't about excluding trans girls. It's about safety , then it's not just about safety but about privacy. Now that I've pointed out that privacy isn't respected regardless of whether males are there or not I'm derailing*

Actually weetabix your implication of shifting ground is completely wrong. One of the four reasons from OP in her first update was not feeling comfortable.

In my first contribution on page 4 I said I thought the assault risk was low but can see why she wouldn’t feel comfortable getting changed - and I wasn’t the first to raise changing facilities.

Your privacy point is appalling. The fact some girls might not feel comfortable getting changed in front of anyone doesn’t alter the fact the girls’ privacy is eroded by being required to get changed in front of someone male who they very possibly until recently knew as a boy. Privacy is better preserved in a single sex space.

I also believe that if leaders take their boys away on trips they aren’t allowed to sleep in with the girls - anyone know if that’s true?