AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

Yes, where has this idea come from that because the Scouts are 'mixed sex' they don't enforce any form of sex segregation for sleeping/changing?

Sex segregation is not enough. It should be ensure privacy (from everyone) not on sex alone.

No but it is a good start, you do not mix dc of opposite sexes for changing or sleeping.

How do the scouts overcome this then?

They have separate sleeping arrangements by sex, boys in one sleeping area, girls in another.

In my DCs cadets boys sleep in one place, girls another, trans children get separate rooms.

In my DCs cadets boys sleep in one place, girls another, trans children get separate rooms

This would be enough for most people.

The motives of the ones demanding more are questionable at best.

How do the scouts overcome this then

By segregating them

But there are many posters on here that say their child goes to cubs/scouts and sleep in mixed accommodation. So how is that managed?

So because sometimes girls are uncomfortable getting changed in front of each other we should let boys in too?

I think that's the idea.

I don't know but my child would not be sleeping in mixed accommodation.

But there are many posters on here that say their child goes to cubs/scouts and sleep in mixed accommodation. So how is that managed?

Maybe ask them? Because other posters have said otherwise.

Yes, where has this idea come from that because the Scouts are 'mixed sex' they don't enforce any form of sex segregation for sleeping/changing?

From posters on here saying it. I have no experience because my dd went to brownies and guides but read back and you will see.

Much as I don't agree with thepolicy change by the girl guides my daughter went to Beavers and slept in with the boys

Beavers etc don’t separate the boys from the girls - kids are supervised anyways.

When my ds done cub scouts they did camps indoors in big halls with both sexes in same room. Leader in room next door.

From the 1st couple of pages on this thread.

So weet

Would you be ok with your dd sharing a dorm with boys on a school trip?

Beavers are between 6-8 years old. The GG equivalent would be Rainbows. Its like comparing apples with pears.

Brownies are aged up to 10 years old. Many girls are starting puberty by then. The scout equivalent would be cubs.

Beavers only goes up to 8 which is when the NSPCC suggests boy/girl siblings should have separate rooms.

Don't know about cubs.

I have taken Year 4 children on a residential trip and it was very clear that it was single sex for sleeping and showers. One girl really wanted to go in with the boys because all her friends were the boys (she is a girl who I often think about actually, because she is ripe for being 'trans' and is at secondary school now - very gender non-conforming, only wanted to play with the boys, sporty, short hair but never said she was actually a boy etc) and her mum requested whether she could go in with the boys, but it was a clear 'no' from the school, and the girl and Mum were fine about it.

Beavers are under 8, cubs under 10.

Basic information, widely available.

So pre-puberty, with scouts segregated.

Why is that do you think?

Oh aye. Because it's needed!

There are boys and girls that I wouldn't be happy with her sharing with and boys and girls that I would be happy with her sharing with.

She had six best friends throughout school and college - boys and girls. They had sleep overs etc throughout.

Equally there were children at school that I would not have wanted her to share with - including those caught buying alcohol on a school trip and others who encouraged others to self harm, to name just a couple of issues.

It wouldn't come up on school trips because they would segregate by sex but as mentioned above I would be much happier for her to share with one her 2 male friends than the other children mentioned who supplied alcohol to their room mates.

It wouldn't come up on school trips because they would segregate by sex

I'm quite sure they did. I wonder why?

10IAR

And the OP is talking about brownies - the same age group as beavers and cubs. So where is the issue?

My daughter doesn’t go to gg for exactly this reason. It would be fabulous for her but not at the expense of her safety.

And this sleep over will be full of strangers. So understandable a parent woukdnt want a transgirl there then what with them being a stranger and Male.

So where is the issue?

Because, for the millionth time, they are saying that while remaining a single sex organisation, they are admitting members not of that sex (biologically or indeed physically) both children and adults, and see no need for a fucking risk assessment.

Dear lord. The point about a mixed sex group, sharing any part of that facility is that it will be risk assessed.

On the basis that it is mixed sex.

If GG don't think a transgirl is the opposite sex to your daughter, then that will not be part of the risk assessment.

From what I have read, they do segregate by sex. But if there is just one room, they make a partition or have one end each.

The point is they acknowledge that there are two sexes involved in the decisions. And that the impact needs to be accommodated.

I'm quite sure they did. I wonder why?
So I should be happy with her sharing a room with 2 girls who brought alcohol on a trip for 14 year olds rather than her 2 male best friends? That seems quite odd.

This has been said numerous times on this thread, but its significance still keeps getting overlooked.

Scouts is an explicitly mixed sex organisation. That is how it advertises itself and that's what is it. It's publicity material says that the organisation is for boys and girls and young people.

GG states that is a single sex organisation, which it has been historically. Its publicity material says that it's for girls.

By admitting boys/people with male bodies (whatever terminology you prefer to use) it is no longer a single sex organisation, but still stating that it is.

The information about trans members is tucked away on their website. I couldn't find any mention of trans boys (ie girls/people with female bodies), but that may be tucked away even further.

If I were a lesbian guide, I would feel very uncomfortable about my category being expanded to include boys tbh.

THAT is gaslighting.

And the OP is talking about brownies - the same age group as beavers and cubs. So where is the issue?

Brownies is not the same age as Beavers. Rainbows are the same age as Beavers.

Has anyone stated that Cubs sleep in the same space (if they have, I havn't seen it and it should not happen).

So I should be happy with her sharing a room with 2 girls who brought alcohol on a trip for 14 year olds rather than her 2 male best friends? That seems quite odd.

A different straw man? You are spoiling us.

If I were a lesbian guide, I would feel very uncomfortable about my category being expanded to include boys tbh.

Sorry, I don't understand. What is the lesbian guide category that is being expanded?