AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

This thread is about a mum stopping her dd from going on a sleepover in case a trans girl might be there For perfectly good, possiby legal, reasons, as outlined way back up thread that you have not bothered to acknowledge.

Issues of safety have been raised but also issues of privacy when getting changes. Raised but who is hectoring them?

It has been implied that so long as boys are not present then the girls will be comfortable with getting changed and I am saying that this assumption is wrong. Only in reply to your presitantly saying something about it

If GG actually ensured privacy for all girls who wanted it then half of the difficulties wouldn't exist anyway. If communal changing didn't happen then all of the girls would have privacy and if on a rare occasion a trans girl were present it wouldn't matter because they would be changing separately anyway. Fucking hell! That was circuitous!

People have been at pains to say this isn't about excluding trans girls. It's about safety , then it's not just about safety but about privacy. Now that I've pointed out that privacy isn't respected regardless of whether males are there or not I'm derailing.

Do you think that if the Girl Guides say they are single sex, then they should actually be single sex? Or not?

That is the 'crux of the matter'.

It's about safety , then it's not just about safety but about privacy. Oh!

I see! You have mistaken safeguarding for safety and privacy

Yet you acknowledge risk assessment when girls go to scouts!

Whose argument changes? You've pointed out nothing except that you will not engage with the same topic the rest of us were talking about!

To be fair weetabix you are a) talking about a bit of a different issue but also b) talking about something families can know about before they send their daughter to a residential.

If many leaders don't know about it (and I can confirm they don't) then parents definitely don't - they are sending their daughter into a situation that she may be uncomfortable with, that she may be traumatised by if she has a background of abuse, but with no forewarning.

Parents are forewarned about the fact that their girl may need to change in front of other GIRLS, either at school or at a Guiding residential; if their daughter is uncomfortable they can try and ask for some changes to arrangements; it is bad if they can't go because the changes can't be made but at least you knew in advance.

It has been implied that so long as boys are not present then the girls will be comfortable with getting changed and I am saying that this assumption is wrong.

Only in reply to your presitantly saying something about it

Not at all. Very early in the thread many posters said that girls wanted privacy to get changed. I agree. They do. So why can't they have it? Do you know how many girls get shamed for how they look by other girls?

This really is taboo to talk about. It's like a collective delusion that groups of girls are supportive and accepting and affirm each other.

All you are concerned about is banning trans girls under the guise of defending safe environments for girls yet those spaces aren't safe and supportive for all girls but there is no acknowledgement of that at all.

Parents are forewarned about the fact that their girl may need to change in front of other GIRLS, either at school or at a Guiding residential; if their daughter is uncomfortable they can try and ask for some changes to arrangements; it is bad if they can't go because the changes can't be made but at least you knew in advance.

Please explain how this solution then is any different to the one that the OP is in? She knows that potentially a trans girl might be there and so she has the choice for her dd to go or not. But people are outraged that her dd might have to miss out.

But if it is a girl who feels very strongly about needing privacy (and there are many like this) then you seem quite comfortable in saying well you are aware so you can choose not to go.

I agree. If you don't like what is on offer, or it's not suitable, then don't go.

This really is taboo to talk about. It's like a collective delusion that groups of girls are supportive and accepting and affirm each other.

So because sometimes girls are uncomfortable getting changed in front of each other we should let boys in too?

All you are concerned about is banning trans girls under the guise of defending safe environments for girls yet those spaces aren't safe and supportive for all girls but there is no acknowledgement of that at all. Which just shows how much you have misunderstood what many posters have been explaining.

As drspouse said, again, just above... this is about knowledge... honest, factual, transparency.

Again you have ignored the OPs reasons for not being able to let her DD go to camp. Again you have ignored the difference between safeguarding and 'safety and privacy'.

Parents and children can make no informed decisions if they are not privy to the proper information.

Girl Guides have no legal reason for allowing boys into the organisation. No reason not to either. But they do have a legal responsibility to do so properly! that is safeguarding, that is common sense, that is the point!

And you have no opportunity to absent yourself from school. Girls do have to just get changed, with no privacy, and they have to put up with it because the prevailing attitude is that you cannot object to being made to change with other girls.

Crikey! Is your surname Armstrong, cos that is a HUGE STRETCH!

As drspouse said, again, just above... this is about knowledge... honest, factual, transparency.

But the OP does know. Hence her post. So it's a non issue really
She knows that possibly there might be a trans girl there so she can make an informed choice.

Any school denying a girl the right to privacy would be on an extremely sticky wicket if they refused that girl access to a cubicle (which we've finally all admitted are present in girls toilets) to change in, if it was requested.

Anecdotal examples of where nobody has bothered to try to challenge this are irrelevant, since they've not been challenged.

The GG new guidance HAS been challenged and anyone disagreeing shut down.

Don't believe me? Call your DDs schools and request that they require privacy while changing. Tell them your solicitor will be in touch if she is demerited or punished for this.

Of course you can reduce risk. If everyone has their own cubicle, everyone had their own bedroom, everyone had two people of the female sex supervising them at all times. If everyone had a camera stuck to their anorak.

And no organisation would be able to do it, because there isn't the money or resources.

One of the first mitigation of safeguarding risk is to segregate children over the age of eight.

The girl guides agree. Which is why they are a single sex organisation.

Except when some boys say differently.

That is the issue that the people on this thread have.

If you want to campaign for single six cubicles for girls, go right ahead.

And they would laugh me out of court.

Changing rooms should be single sex - end of. Teachers are not even present whilst children are changing (Ds had issues with bullying and his school refused to supervise the changing rooms. )

Girl Guides should be single sex or at the very least sleeping & changing accommodation should be single sex.

I don't think there is a threat from transwomen, although I do think there is a threat from men pretending to be transwomen.
I don't think that this would be relevant in this situation though.

I don't think there is a threat from transwomen, although I do think there is a threat from men pretending to be transwomen.
I don't think that this would be relevant in this situation though.

It is absolutely relevant since the guidance applies to leaders too. It's exactly the kind of loophole that has already been used by predators to gain access to victims.

There was a trans boy in my Dds class at school. A third space was found for him. I had no issue with that and I have no issue with using his preferred pronoun though it took some getting used to (he transitioned around the end of year 9).

Comefromaway it sounds like an ideal solution tbh. I'm happy to use pronouns, and to respect identity to a point.

Until it becomes about appeasing trans activists who target vulnerable children and women.

That's where my issue lies.

One of the first mitigation of safeguarding risk is to segregate children over the age of eight.

How do the scouts overcome this then?

Don't believe me? Call your DDs schools and request that they require privacy while changing. Tell them your solicitor will be in touch if she is demerited or punished for this.

No way in the world would this work. My dd has left school now but when she was there they amalgamated 2 classes for pe so there were 30 girls. There are 2 toilets around the other side of the block. So they have to offer 30 girls the choice to change in 2 toilet cubicles around the other side of the building all in the small time given? The just would not agree to it.

Children are just expected to conform for the convenience of the adults around them and the fall back position is always that it's sex segregated so basically you have no grounds to object. No matter the effects that has on you.

Sex segregation is not enough. It should be ensure privacy (from everyone) not on sex alone.

How do the scouts overcome this then?

By segregating them.

So they have to offer 30 girls the choice to change in 2 toilet cubicles around the other side of the building all in the small time given?

Let me get this right, you're saying that an entire class of girls doesn't want to change in communal changing rooms? Every single one?

And I'm gaslighting? Away and catch yerself on, that straw man of yours is smoking.

She knows that possibly there might be a trans girl there so she can make an informed choice. And she did... that was her starting point here.

That is why we are all talking about the realities of accepting the non science that human beings can change sex, that organisations who allow both sexes seem to remain 'single sex' etc etc

No way in the world would this work

It would, it's covered in the Equalities Act.

You know, an actual law.

How do the scouts overcome this then? By segregating them and telling parents what they would do, by fully risk assessing the situation. AKA Safeguarding!

Sex segregation is not enough. It should be ensure privacy (from everyone) not on sex alone. You want the world to live in isolation?

My niece is a scout. She has never been asked to change in front of or sleep in the same room as the boys.