AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

Which needed men and boys to run it.

They didnt.

It was a single sex boys organisation

It still should be. It's now mixed sex, unlike GG.

I agree it should be single sex still.

It's a shame figuring out ways to infiltrate the girl guides was deemed more important than keeping the beavers going.

Shows you where the priorities lie

10IAR

Then your LA must be the only one in the country. I know of no primary school where children change anywhere other classrooms. And no secondary school where there are cubicles. Yes, the toilets have cubicles. The toilets are nowhere near the changing rooms so no, they can't change in the toilets. In the pe block there are only 2 toilets anyway with 30 odd girls changing at anyone time. Even if the teacher allowed it, how long would that take?

There is no privacy for girls at school but that's just ok is it? Because they are all girls it's fine.

It still should be. Absolutely. If men and boys want a single sex organisation they should run it. I find it odd that so many women rose to the occasion and that so many men allowed them to!

It's now mixed sex, unlike GG. I can't help but think that if scouts had remained male only then GG would have changed quite differently, remained single sex in name and fact, and become more like scouts, scouts more like guides. Basically the same organisation as each other but, you know, single sex !!

Draw what conclusion you like from that observation

There is no privacy for girls at school but that's just ok is it? Because they are all girls it's fine

But surely if this is the case (and it's a long time since I was at school so I'm not debating whether it is or isn't) then conditions will be exactly the same for boys (i.e. communal changing) so the idea that this, somehow, is harmful to girls and not boys is moot.

10IAR

Seriously, ask the other posters on here how many schools have cubicles. How many cubicles are there at guide camp or when schools go to swimming lessons?

You are being ridiculous denying this reality.

That's how you operate is it? Just deny the reality?

The whole thread is about denying reality isnt it?

Like the whole idea boys are girls.

But cubicles is the one you want to argue about.

Ok

Weetabix, stopped deailing.

I'm sure lots of people would love individual cubicles, where they are fully and individually supervised.

What's that got to do with the guides saying they aren't mixed sex, when they are?

Seriously, ask the other posters on here how many schools have cubicles. How many cubicles are there at guide camp or when schools go to swimming lessons?

There. Are. Toilets.

People, including children, have access to toilets pretty much everywhere and especially at times when they will be changing (see my post above). The opportunity to change privately if you don't want others of the same sex to see you is there, but the whole point is that most girls don't do this, even though they could, because they are more comfortable getting changed in front of other girls.

If there were boys changing in the same space, then I'm sure a lot more girls would want to go and get changed in the loos.

And yes, you are derailing from the main point which is GG are saying they are single sex when they are not single sex.

At all the schools (4 different ones)my children have attended there are no changing cubicles in the PE changing rooms. Any child atempting to get changed in the toilets would have been given a demerit mark as there are only 2-3 toilets and they have a strict time limit for changing. So if the toilet was already occupied they would have to wait for it which would make them late. This would lead to them being kept behind after class.

Weetabix in almost 40 years of life, travelling extensively living in different areas of the UK, I have never, not once, come across public toilets/toilets within church/organisation/clubs/schools/university halls that do not have cubicles.

Show me where I have said no cubicles in toilets? I haven't because I am talking about changing rooms not toilets.

I went to an all girls school and we would all tie ourselves in knots trying to get changed in front of each other without showing anything, but we did it and as we all said to each other at various times, 'we've all got the same bits'.

And this is the attitude that I am talking about. Clearly you weren't comfortable because you tied yourselves in knots trying not to get changed in front of each other. And you don't all "have the same bits" if you are an 8 year old girl who has breasts and pubic hair and your classmates don't. And changing for pe is always done in a rush. Children aren't allowed to go backwards and forwards to the toilets because time is limited.

Same as at brownie camp. Toilets aren't always that close and an adult accompanies the children. That's a nuisance if the children could otherwise all change in the tent unsupervised.

Boundaries are trodden down all the time by adults and we should all acknowledge that, rather than denying it in favour of believing all girls together is some sort of utopia.

So a class of 30 say for arguments sake its split evenly. 15 girls in one communal changing room with 2 toilet cubicles. Last one out gets a demerit. Anyone taking longer than the allocated time to get changed gets a demerit/detention.

And you are telling me there is a choice to change in privacy?

And this is the attitude that I am talking about. Clearly you weren't comfortable because you tied yourselves in knots trying not to get changed in front of each other.

Yes, and I would have been a zillion times more uncomfortable if there had been boys in the changing room as well. So..... I don't think changing rooms should be mixed sex. I hope that's clear.

Comefromaway

Exactly. There is no choice.

Boundaries are trodden down all the time by adults and we should all acknowledge that, rather than denying it in favour of believing all girls together is some sort of utopia.

We do acknowledge that. There are often threads about the inadequacy of changing rooms curtains etc.

But firstly, this thread isn't about that. I don't know why you are trying to make it about your own personal problem.

And secondly, if girls are concerned about getting changed in front of other girls, it's going to be even worse if they are boys saying they are girls.

It's a pointless derail.

Yes, and I would have been a zillion times more uncomfortable if there had been boys in the changing room as well. So..... I don't think changing rooms should be mixed sex. I hope that's clear.

Yes it is. And just because girls would be less embarrassed than if boys were there it doesn't mean that changing isn't still incredibly embarrassing in front of other girls but it's sacrilegious to actually say this.

Oh do stop, dear!

It's past tedious now!

Derailing, insisting, persisting, ignoring, straw manning... silly season in full swing!

YY. There is no point indulging this derailing nonsense.

And you are telling me there is a choice to change in privacy?

I'm still failing to see what this has to do with keeping the Girl Guides single sex?

Do you think that we should not biter keeping GG single sex because you cannot guarantee that the girls will be able to get changed individually? That that means we should just let males into GG (without parents knowing)?

But firstly, this thread isn't about that. I don't know why you are trying to make it about your own personal problem.
It's not my own personal problem.

This thread is about a mum stopping her dd from going on a sleepover in case a trans girl might be there. Issues of safety have been raised but also issues of privacy when getting changes.

It has been implied that so long as boys are not present then the girls will be comfortable with getting changed and I am saying that this assumption is wrong.

If GG actually ensured privacy for all girls who wanted it then half of the difficulties wouldn't exist anyway. If communal changing didn't happen then all of the girls would have privacy and if on a rare occasion a trans girl were present it wouldn't matter because they would be changing separately anyway.

*bother not biter

It has been implied that so long as boys are not present then the girls will be comfortable with getting changed and I am saying that this assumption is wrong.

No it hasn't. People are saying that it will be more comfortable for girls to get changed with other girls than it would be for girls to get changed with boys present as well.

So unless you want to go for the less comfortable option for girls, then I think we can all agree that single sex spaces are the way to go, yah? So why is GG trying to take that away? That is the question that people are asking.

It's so interesting. As soon as a poster starts to get near the crux of the matter how the shouts of derailing, straw man start coming.

People have been at pains to say this isn't about excluding trans girls. It's about safety , then it's not just about safety but about privacy. Now that I've pointed out that privacy isn't respected regardless of whether males are there or not I'm derailing.

It's also odd how no one complained when some guiders said that they take their sons on camp ( risk assessed, safe guarded etc etc) but they are still male so that does make the group mixed sex. Why not the same outcry about them?

It's very interesting how your arguments change depending on who it is that you want to exclude.