AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

They're not moving to become a mixed sex organisation, that's the whole argument.

They're redefining what single sex means and lying by omission. THAT is the issue.

Incidentally I disagree with scouts admitting girls, boys should be able to have single sex spaces too.

I'm not arguing that if we can't afford girls privacy then admit males too.

You kind of are though aren't you?

There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep a space single sex. It's not 'bigoted', it's not 'unenlightened', it's not 'unempathetic', it's not 'unnecessary'.

It's a) common sense b) the safest thing to do c) the set up that most people (male and female) are comfortable with.

Single sex spaces have been around for a long time now, and no one ever had a problem with segregating males and females, until some males decided they wanted to go in with the females. Then sex segregated spaces started being compared with race segregation and bigotry. Funny that....

So there are no cubicles anywhere in your imaginary changing rooms?
What imaginary changing rooms? I am talking about changing rooms that I know irl. Changing rooms in PE blocks - a communal room. Toilets on other side of PE block. No changing cubicles.

At this brownie camp apparently it's a large marquee with apparently no individual changing. If a brownie wants to get changed alone will the leaders facilitate this, without fuss? Or will it be a nuisance, having to take the girl somewhere separate to change, such that she is jollied along to get changed with everyone else?

It's been repeatedly stated how girls can have privacy in single sex space.
How? Tell me how? At primary school where do girls change for PE? When they go swimming with the school where do they change? School residential trips? Brownie and guide camps?

Tell me how privacy, within female spaces, is afforded.

The same choices as parents of boys had when scouts became mixed sex

Scouts became mixed because there werent enough boys or Male leaders volunteering to keep them running themselves . It was admit girls and female leaders or lose ot completely.

So men and boys didnt care enough to work harder to keep their space open and now think girls shouldn't get theirs.

Yeah that's fair

If GG are moving towards being a mixed sex organisation

They are not moving towards being a mixed sex organisation. They remain single sex in name, and market themselves as single sex, but they aren't actually single sex. Unlike Scouts which became mixed sex very openly.

Scouts became mixed because there werent enough boys or Male leaders volunteering to keep them running themselves . It was admit girls and female leaders or lose ot completely.

So men and boys didnt care enough to work harder to keep their space open and now think girls shouldn't get theirs.

Yes, the majority of the people who run DDs Beavers are women, including the main leader, now that I think about it.

Same old story with everythimg they cant be arsed to fight for their own spaces so they campaign to take away ours.

RockyFlintstone

I'm not arguing for mixed sex spaces.

I'm saying stop pretending that single sex spaces are fantastic for all of the girls. They aren't. They also have problems yet because of the attitudes displayed here, girls that have just as valid reasons for not changing in front of girls are made to feel awkward or embarrassed. They are made to not make a fuss because they are shooed away with an "all girls together" attitude. But no one is allowed to talk about that.

Single sex spaces have been around for a long time now, and no one ever had a problem with segregating males and females, until some males decided they wanted to go in with the females

In 2007 girls were allowed to join UK scout groups. Boys (unless they identify as a girl which, I agree, is a whole different issue) are still not allow to join Brownies/Guides.

So your point that girls have had to 'miss out' on single sex activities because of some sort of pandering to the male of the species is actually quite to the contrary.

Weetabixandshreddies I have, several times.

You deny the existence of cubicles, I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to reason with that ridiculousness.

But carry on defending girls denied access to cubicles in these imaginary cubicle-less spaces.

Same old story with everythimg they cant be arsed to fight for their own spaces so they campaign to take away ours.

They had their own space, that girls then took over.

Girls and women saved the organisation .

Without their admission they wouldnt have it . That's not down to us.

FFS

They could have asked Yes! But when they did they asked woolly questions and then used answers to those questions to pretend that parents were ine with boys being girls in camp etc. As has been quoted a couple of time upthread.

Equally it has been all over the media. Yes! Because guide leaders, like the one here you seem to be ignoring, went public and had to resign their leader positions to get that message out!

I should think plenty of parents do know. You do, do you? Well, those that do have the same ex leaders to thank. Those that do not have GGs the organisation to thank!

They had their own space, that girls then took over.

Trans women had their own spaces which were then taken over by girls?

Are you pissed?

Guide leaders have lost their jobs fighting this crap.

Where are all the scout leaders fighting to take their packs back?

They are free to do so.

10IAR

I'm denying them because they don't exist!!!!!!

Primary school children change for pe in classrooms - how many cubicles are there in classrooms?

Our secondary school has communal changing rooms - there are no cubicles.

Ask around. It is not unusual.

It's a good way of not responding though - just gaslight me into believing that what I know to be true doesn't exist.

It's better to accuse me of making it up (when many people on here will know that this is the set up in many schools and swimming polls) than actually have to admit that within single sex spaces privacy is not available necessarily.

Girls and women saved the organisation .

Without their admission they wouldnt have it . That's not down to us.
Then it would have closed if not enough boys or men joined.

Why did that give girls the right to join? They had an organisation. Why did they need to join a boys organisation when they already had a girls one?

If GG are moving towards being a mixed sex organisation then parents have 3 choices - accept it, remove your child or set up another single sex group. The same choices as parents of boys had when scouts became mixed sex.

They're not moving towards mixed sex. They are not allowing boys. In fact they are discriminating against those boys, because they don't say some magic words.

Parents can't accept it, because they don't know (seriously, you can't keep being this dense. You keep saying the same thing).

Scouts became mixed sex because they would have folded otherwise.

Primary school children change for pe in classrooms - how many cubicles are there in classrooms?

Not in my LA they don't, they have changing rooms. And toilets with cubicles.

Our secondary school has communal changing rooms - there are no cubicles.

No cubicles in the toilets, no?

It is not I who is gaslighting, it is you and your cronies, so desperate to be "right on" that you cannot see the damage you are causing.

I note no answer to you being happy to share all spaces, including ones where you're partially undressed, with men.

Funny that eh? Given you're so unhappy about sharing with females, presumably you'd feel the same way about males.

I don't see them trying to take it back do you? Where are they.

Where are all the scout leaders fighting to take their packs back?

They shouldn't have to should they? It was a single sex boys organisation.

How? Tell me how? At primary school where do girls change for PE? When they go swimming with the school where do they change? School residential trips? Brownie and guide camps?

I see what you are trying to say but actually in reality, girls would have the opportunity to get changed in private by virtue of single sex toilets, which they should be allowed to access at any time shouldn't they?

So girls getting changed at a residential could take their clothes into the loos and get changed. At my primary school we have (sex segregated) changing rooms which the toilets are also in, so a girl could go in there and get changed. But even if it were class changing, they would be allowed to pop to the loo to get changed. Presumably at Brownie Camp there are toilets nearby which a girl could go and get changed in if she wanted.

It's not usually a problem because most girls are more comfortable getting changed in front of other girls, but the opportunity is there if needed. If there was a male in that space I think things would be different.

I went to an all girls school and we would all tie ourselves in knots trying to get changed in front of each other without showing anything, but we did it and as we all said to each other at various times, 'we've all got the same bits'. If boys had been in the changing room as well it would have been a million times more uncomfortable and I'm pretty sure all the girls would have taken themselves off the toilet cubicles to avoid being seen by the boys.

Weetabix in almost 40 years of life, travelling extensively living in different areas of the UK, I have never, not once, come across public toilets/toilets within church/organisation/clubs/schools/university halls that do not have cubicles.

What you "know to be true" is a fallacy.

Epic derailer.