AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

Why is it ok for girls and women to trample over the feelings of other girls?

Quite some brass necked DARVO, Weet.

And the OP does know. She chooses not to let her daughter go, which is her choice.

It's the entire point of the thread.

I fear that's not something which will move Weetabix.

What provision would be made for girls in this situation?

I responded to that question, it's not my fault you dislike the answer.

As Datun says, we'll never know because nobody is asking. They're telling, and in a very unpleasant way at that.

If a girl wishes to have privacy, that should be her right.

It's not other girls or women telling her she can't have it.

There has been a lot of media coverage about it though. Parents could easily be informed of the policy, in a neutral way, and they can then decide

And why do you think that is, @Weetabixandshreddies ? It's not because Girlguiding wanted it out there. It's because leaders like me had no choice; it was the only way to inform as many parents as possible that this was happening. The end of single of single sex spaces in Guiding.

Ereshkigal

No it isn't. It's just that you refuse to acknowledge that girls and women can be treated thoughtlessly or worse by other females.

How many women refuse to get changed in communal changing rooms in shops? They used to be really common but not anymore. Why? Because so many women wouldn't use them.

Apply this to younger girls though and their feelings aren't considered. I come from a family where all the girls experience early puberty (I'm talking about 9 years). We've all experienced a lack of empathy and a "just get on with it" attitude from other women (teachers, guide leaders, swimming teachers). It's seen as quite acceptable for girls to have to get changed in front of other girls - PE, swimming, residential trips. - and this expectation, that girls should be comfortable changing with other girls, puts pressure on individuals to not be able to say no. The only maintaining of boundaries that is acceptable to talk about on here is male/female. No one is ever allowed to speak about female/female boundaries.

I don't think that it should be the norm to have communal changing. There should be easily available alternative choices so that girls are free to choose what they need, without being made to feel ashamed or different.

What is so wrong with saying that?

It's not other girls or women telling her she can't have it.

No it's not, which makes Weetabix's attempt at a reversal all the more ridiculous.

As is the parallel universe idea that if we can't logistically ensure that girls uncomfortable changing in front of women feel comfortable 100% of the time we should let in boys so all the other girls can feel uncomfortable too.

What is so wrong with saying that?

Because this thread about girls' privacy and dignity around MALE people. Your argument is pure whataboutery. Start your campaign for single spaces for all. I agree with you in many cases. I'll buy a badge.

The girl guides have not told their members. They have told the leaders to not tell their members.

The only reason it was reported is because a few of those leaders were aghast at the safeguarding breach.

When they went to the press, they were subsequently fired from the girl guides.

And still, without an answer as to why safeguarding suddenly disappeared with some magic words from transactivists.

So don't ask what the members think. The members are being deliberately kept in the dark. And people who point that out are being ostracised and shut down.

And, by the way, if you do happen to find that, it doesn't matter what you think.

no child shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with their privacy

Article 16 of the UN Rights of the Child.

So you see, it IS contrary to legislation.

Female/female privacy can be worked around, because it doesn't involve disrupting every female in the group
So Weetabix you can argue and argue, but the fact remains, no female is telling women and girls they have to share spaces with male bodied people. Nobody is telling women and girls they cannot have privacy from other women and girls. So your argument isn't relevant.

*find out

The end of single of single sex spaces in Guiding.

But maybe the majority of parents and girls are ok with that?

I'm not saying if it is right or wrong by the way. I'm just saying that if the majority are ok with it changing then so be it.

I guess the same as when scouts became mixed sex. Maybe a minority didn't want it. They might have wanted it to stay single sex but it was done due to falling numbers. I guess if they felt strongly enough they could have broken away and set up a single sex boys organisation. Maybe that will be the answer for those who can't accept GG policy?

You do realise that all your "maybes" could be answered if they'd actually asked!

But they didn't because it's easier to roll over and give the activists what they want, because they go on the attack if they don't get what they want.

Because they're men.

But maybe the majority of parents and girls are ok with that?

Oh, ffs!!!

Nobody is telling women and girls they cannot have privacy from other women and girls. So your argument isn't relevant.

Really? So how easy is it for all girls who want to change in private to do so at brownie camp? Or PE at school where there is only a communal changing room?

Girls are being told they can't have privacy from other girls all the time.

You do realise that all your "maybes" could be answered if they'd actually asked!
They could have asked. Equally it has been all over the media. I should think plenty of parents do know.

And who does it benefit the most to end single sex spaces?

Clue it's not abused, looked after, disabled, harassed girls and women.

It doesbt even benefit the happy healthy confident ones cos attitude and circumstances dont protect you from Male violence.

It benefits men. Men who are delighted in having found a way in to what they hate women for the most.

Women only spaces and lesbianism.

But maybe the majority of parents and girls are ok with that?

Surely you either want single sex spaces or you aren't bothered. So if you aren't bothered you can send your DD to Scouts, but if you want single sex you send them to GG?

Plenty of parents still want single sex education for their kids, what makes you think they wouldn't be bothered for Guides?

Plus, as everyone has said they haven't even been asked.

Incidentally, I am not bothered about single sex and send my DD to Beavers. But I can see why many parents might want female only spaces for something like Guides, and I think they should have the right to have that.

They will never know what their members think, because they are aren't going to ask.

They are not willing to acknowledge that they are a mixed sex organisation.

But they want to have a USP that they are only for girls. Except they're not now.

But they won't admit that.

And they will never ask their members, because it will involve acknowledging that a risk assessment involves biological sex. Not a feeling in your head as to what your preferences are.

Really? So how easy is it for all girls who want to change in private to do so at brownie camp? Or PE at school where there is only a communal changing room?

So there are no cubicles anywhere in your imaginary changing rooms?

You're grasping at some fairly flimsy straws now. The two situations are entirely different, and you know it.

Nobody is telling girls they can't have privacy from other girls, in fact, that's why cubicles exist. So we can have privacy even within SINGLE SEX spaces.

So privacy within single sex spaces is already accounted for.

What isn't accounted for is single sex spaces being changed to be non single sex and expecting the girls and women who use those spaces to shut up and allow someone with a penis in.

That's what is happening right now.

They change the definition of things they don't like. To suit their agenda.

They could have asked. Equally it has been all over the media. I should think plenty of parents do know.

No they don't. Not even Brownie leaders know. Our local Brownie leader was astonished, when I told her.

Weetabixandshreddies

So do you not agree with any single sex spaces then? Everything should be mixed?

As is the parallel universe idea that if we can't logistically ensure that girls uncomfortable changing in front of women feel comfortable 100% of the time we should let in boys so all the other girls can feel uncomfortable too.

I'm not arguing that if we can't afford girls privacy then admit males too.

I am saying why are you presenting the argument that if boys aren't present then girls have privacy and are comfortable getting changed. I'm saying that the absence of boys does not equal privacy.

I'm saying that the absence of boys does not equal privacy

It's been repeatedly stated how girls can have privacy in single sex space.

What I want to know is would you be happy sharing a hospital ward, toilet, changing room, refuge, prison cell or any other formerly single sex space with a man you don't know or don't wish to be partially naked in front of?

Incidentally, I am not bothered about single sex and send my DD to Beavers.

So why aren't you bothered about boys having a single sex space? Why support an organisation that removed that for boys?

If GG are moving towards being a mixed sex organisation then parents have 3 choices - accept it, remove your child or set up another single sex group. The same choices as parents of boys had when scouts became mixed sex.