AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

If the girls complain they are told they are being transphobic or should show more empathy.

It's setting them up for thinking their boundaries don't count if someone feels put out or hurt or offended by them. It's unequivocally wrong to go that to girls and it's part of rape culture.

Unless you're trans! Extraordinary

I know datun, seemed to be posted without a hint of irony too 🤦🏽‍♀️

If GG could guarantee only females at the overnight camp how does that make the daytime activities safe for this child

I dont work in social services, as far as i can see with a few of the children i know they are a law unto themselves

And actually i DO think n0rdic would have sympathy for a child in either of those two situations

In exactly the same way that people have empathy/sympathy for any trans children

No one wants kids to suffer

(Well unless there is something badly wrong with them)

o a child that has been told by social services that she cant go on guide camp with her friends doesn't deserve empathy

Actually i just realised that weetabix hasn't responded to my actual comment

I bet weetabix would feel sorry for the child in that situation so no need to answer

Because unlike you, the vast majority of women and girls feel more comfortable with only girls/women present when they are in a vulnerable situation such as getting changed.

They might feel more comfortable if it's only girls but it doesn't mean that they feel comfortable. I, and many women that I know, have never liked getting changed in front of others yet we have always just had to get on with it because "it's all girls together" and no effort is made to afford girls who feel like this any privacy. So I don't like the assumption that girl only space = girls feeling comfortable. It makes girls who aren't comfortable feel unable to say anything because the prevailing attitude is "all girls together".

What provision is made on GG camps for girls who want privacy?

AgnesBadenPowell

I have researched the history. I can't find reference to the inclusion of openly lesbian girls but given the era that it was set up in I find it very surprising if girls were "out". Why did so many "spinsters"live together if it were socially acceptable to be openly lesbian?

As for learning life skills - yes I agree but there are other life skills apart from learning housekeeping and cooking and childcare. It was stereotypically "wifework". It was slightly better when my daughter went but not much. In fact they didn't really do badges at all. It was more playing games and arts and crafts. And I am not criticizing the adults who volunteer their time. I volunteer for other groups and I know who hard it is. I just think it's odd the romantic and almost Enid Blyton vision that some people paint of GG and how everything will be ruined if some trans girls join.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

Sorry, I haven't seen the comment that you wanted me to answer. What was it?

Then you can campaign for single private spaces for changing/washing/sleeping, Weetabix. If it's important to you and not just an opportunity to derail. What are you expecting? Most women and girls uncomfortable changing in front of other girls would be even more uncomfortable with males present.

What provision is made on GG camps for girls who want privacy?

Why? All girls together is the choice the child and parents make when they decide to go on camp.

It is possible to get privacy, leaders can and do ensure a very shy girl is given privacy to undress, change sanitary wear etc.

You are equating that to a girl who looks round one evening and sees a boy gtting changed besiade her. Why?

At about 9 or 10 years old human beings become fully aware of themselve as an individual, have a nascent sense of self and start making comparisons betwen themself and their peers. THIS AGE is when privacy and ddignity is quite essential inorder to help boys and girls enter puberty with the leastanxiety!

It is the girl who feels uncomfortable who will be removed, not the boy, the cause of the dsicomfort... GG says so, as do all other organisations who take the Stonewall approach. Why?

Why so many straw man arguments?

weetabix

You quoted it..wasnt a question as such more of a point

But i know you would be sympathetic and im not trying to pull a fast one so there is honestly no need to comment

It was the feeling empathy/sympathy for the looked after child or abused child

Why? All girls together is the choice the child and parents make when they decide to go on camp.

I know many females who don't like changing in front of others, it's not just the odd few at all it's just the way that things are set up these girls who feel uncomfortable aren't able to say anything.

And your statement above is basically "you know the set up. If you don't like it don't go" so not inclusive at all dor the girls who don't want to change with other girls. Why is it ok to exclude girls who are self conscious or embarrassed about their bodies? Maybe young girls who start puberty very early and are aware of looking very different to their peers?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

Oh I see, sorry I misunderstood.

Of course I am sympathetic to that child. There are many children who have specific individual needs. It's very difficult. Can you always accommodate everyone? I doubt that you can and sometimes children will be excluded I suppose and that is very sad. My daughter had a medical condition that meant that she couldn't participate in brownie camps because the activities weren't suitable for her. She was really upset not to be able to go but what can you do? I couldn't insist that they change the activities to include her could I?

I refer you to my post Weetabix. Better start your campaign to abolish all communal spaces for washing, changing and sleeping.

And your statement above is basically "you know the set up. If you don't like it don't go" so not inclusive at all dor the girls who don't want to change with other girls. No! As I have said, very clearly, from page one onwards, my statement is about informed consent. Parents and children know what a GG camp is, what a scout camp is, what bowling is, what a pizza party is, etc etc etc, they get to decide if it an activity they wish to engage with.

Exceptet nowadays they don't get all information they would need to make an informed decision.

It doesn't matter how you sidestep or ignore that, safeguarding and choice is the heart of the matter.

She was really upset not to be able to go but what can you do? I couldn't insist that they change the activities to include her could I?

And again, since it's been ignored by several posters, why doesn't this apply to male children who want to share with female children? It's your argument that children should be excluded if they can't be accommodated without disadvantaging the majority.

Exceptet nowadays they don't get all information they would need to make an informed decision.

THIS

Your post ignores the point Ereshkigal.

I do think there should be individual changing and washing facilities yes. Because then you wouldn't make girls feel uncomfortable about asking for them or make them put up with something or self exclude because their needs aren't accommodated. And that is the case. Maybe times have changed but when I went on camp the toilets were a fair way away. You all went en mass morning and evening. I don't think a leader would have been very receptive to us asking to be taken backwards and forwards to get dressed and undressed.

Why is it ok for girls and women to trample over the feelings of other girls?

What provision is made on GG camps for girls who want privacy?

I'm willing to bet that it's not telling everyone else they must change the way they do things for one person eh?

Because that would be exclusionary and unfair, expecting the majority to bow to the minority wouldn't it?

Wait.....

And again, since it's been ignored by several posters, why doesn't this apply to male children who want to share with female children? It's your argument that children should be excluded if they can't be accommodated without disadvantaging the majority.

Well how do the majority feel about this? Maybe the majority aren't bothered by a trans girl being present? So then what?

Transgirls are not male.

I continue to be incredulous that people can 'not believe' in things that are medically proven. It's a bit like 'not believing' in vaccines really.

oh for fucks sake

Could you please linked to your source of peer reviewed evidence that humans can change sex?

Thanks in advance.

Also, I really hate the term 'Transgirls'. I think I am still scarred from when I looked at the #transgirls hashtag on twitter after someone mentioned it on here. Let's just say, coke cans were involved....

10IAR

Well, I don't think it's only 1 girl who isn't comfortable changing in front of other girls.

But, given the main thrust of this thread is defending girls' feelings of privacy around undressing, puberty etc why would it be ok to exclude say an 8 year old girl going through puberty who realises that their body looks very different to their peers? What provision would be made for girls in this situation?

Well how do the majority feel about this? Maybe the majority aren't bothered by a trans girl being present? So then what?

Well, you will never know. Because they are not being asked.

It's the entire point of the thread.

There has been a lot of media coverage about it though. Parents could easily be informed of the policy, in a neutral way, and they can then decide.