AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

The mother doesn’t need empathy and neither does the child. My dc haven’t gone on umpteen gg, scouting and school trips. A child already feeling alone and at odds with society however does need and deserve empathy.

Parents would only need alerting if the child was a known risk the same as if any of the other girls were known risks for a whole host of reasons . Statistically there is a bigger risk from the entire other group to a single trans child. Trans does not equal abuser.

Has anyone realised that it's solely women and girls being told they're bigots and that their spaces are no longer theirs?

What are your views on how Girl Guides came to be in the first place?

And please explain why the people are objecting to the presence of trans girls on the basis of risk to privacy and safety yet these issues still remain if trans girls aren't present.

Standard safeguarding is that male and female children are separated in overnight accommodation, and toilets from about the age of 8.

Other posters have said that cubs and scouts sleep in mixed accommodation though so how do they safeguard?

So to be clear, what you are all saying is that excluding males from GG makes it safe?

Doesn't it get tiring crafting all these straw men? Perhaps you should have done a Brownie badge in that.

A child already feeling alone and at odds with society however does need and deserve empathy.

Unless they are a girl.

Unless it's a group set up to help centre girls - the girls in your 'already feeling alone and at odds with society' scenario.

You couldn't be more sexist, if you tried.

The mother doesn’t need empathy and neither does the child

So a child that has been told by social services that she cant go on guide camp with her friends doesn't deserve empathy

The mother of a sexually assaulted child doesn't need empathy

Im not being hyperbolic...these were two of the reasons given. And they may not be true one of the other two might be the real reasons

But thats whats surprised me about the whole thread...ive no problem whatsoever with people saying that none of the reasons are valid, but you'd think people woukd have a bit more sympathy for the two that would cause problems for most of us as parents

So at your DCs' school, Nordic do all the children get changed together for PE and swimming, and no girls object to this? Girls (of Brownie age) who have periods have no separate toilet and hand washing facilities? They don't mind this?

Other posters have said that cubs and scouts sleep in mixed accommodation though so how do they safeguard?

Certainly didnt hapoen in the two cub groups i knew well

Might happen now or in other cub groups

A child already feeling alone and at odds with society however does need and deserve empathy

Looked after children quite often feel this

As do children who have been assaulted

They know what happened to them hasn't happened to all their friends

In theory, and historically, Scouts asked the children and parents, and if everyone was OK, they could share.
Now, who knows.

But thats whats surprised me about the whole thread...ive no problem whatsoever with people saying that none of the reasons are valid

It's because they're girls.

I really don't understand how there could be any other reason.

Because there is a perfectly good mixed sex alternative. Almost identical.

And the boy could attend it by presenting as a girl. That's absolutely no problem. Because it is mixed sex.

And the girl guides are perfectly entitled, legally, despite what they were advised, to exclude boys presenting as girls.

It's not logical, it's not something they can't refuse to do, the secrecy part is depriving girls of consent, and it's making their numbers drop.

Why? Why do it?

It isn’t school it’s camp. You suck up any inconveniences or you don’t go. Camp is not a right or obligatory . One of my dc had sens impossible to accommodate so she didn’t go. She went on other things. C’est la vie.A trans child is deserving of empathy as much as any other child and certainly more than a mother who is just trying to make a political point and witch hunt.

Anyhow some of us have work to go to. I’ll leave you to your scaremongering,stat twisting witch hunt.

Its sad but i have to agree with you datun

Apparently there is no valid reason why a 10 year old girl can't be in a single sex area such as bedrooms or showers/changing areas

Even if social services have said that...still makes the girl a bigot

Even if she has been raped....still makes the girl a bigot

Its really honestly sad

And i have every sympathy for a transgirl wanting to be in guides

How can anyone be born in the wrong body? All humans on the planet are born in their body and it is the only one they have.

This. A human being is a body. Nothing else.

ive just seen nordics last post

I think both the girl and transgirl in this situation deserve empathy and sympathy

I like being reasonable

And although the fence i sit on gives me splinters i feel happier here, for the time being at least

Doesn't it get tiring crafting all these straw men? Perhaps you should have done a Brownie badge in that.

Maybe answer my question then. The objections put forward for excluding trans girls are that it will remove or risk the girls' privacy and safety. That suggests that with only girls present there will be no safety risks and no girls will feel a lack of privacy. Personally I don't think that is correct so maybe someone could explain how safety and privacy is maintained if there are only girls present?

So a child that has been told by social services that she cant go on guide camp with her friends doesn't deserve empathy

In the OP the camp is an overnight stay at a theme park. So during the day I presume the theme park will be open to the public, and also staff will be present. So the child will be mixing with completely unknown adults and children, anyone who could present a danger to the child. Surely if sleeping overnight with identifiable children and adults presents too big of a risk then mixing freely with complete strangers is an even bigger risk. If GG could guarantee only females at the overnight camp how does that make the daytime activities safe for this child?

I think you have a very romanticised vision here

I very much doubt girls were welcome however they presented. Are you saying that GG, when it was set up, openly welcomed lesbian girls? At a time when being gay was illegal?

Do some research into the history of guiding. There have always been lesbian girls and adults in the movement. Male homosexuality was criminalised, but female wasn't. Guiding was a safe haven for a few young lesbian women.

And it was set up to inspire and empower girls? I was a brownie and guide in the 70s and 80s. Our badges included childcare, homemaker, cook, sewing. We learnt how to sew on buttons and clean shoes. Very empowering*

Learning how to look after a child, cook, sew on a button are important skills if you're ever going to live as an independent adult. The problem lies with only girls being taught these skills - they are just as essential for boys too. Unless you have servants to do all the domestic labour for you?

Packs are dependents on their leaders for the programme so yes, some units do too much pink glittery stuff. Others do much more challenging stuff. If the programme is t empowering enough then you need to find right unit/leader for your child. Or start your own!

It's so frustrating how these threads descend into anti - girl, anti women rants by people who know nothing about the movement and aren't particularly bothered about it continuing.

It isn’t school it’s camp. You suck up any inconveniences or you don’t go. Camp is not a right or obligatory . One of my dc had sens impossible to accommodate so she didn’t go. She went on other things. C’est la vie.A trans child is deserving of empathy as much as any other child and certainly more than a mother who is just trying to make a political point and witch hunt.

So why aren't the wishes of male children who identify as girls to share accommodation and washing facilities with female people "impossible to accommodate"?

It isn’t school it’s camp. You suck up any inconveniences or you don’t go. Camp is not a right or obligatory

Unless you're trans!

Extraordinary.

Personally I don't think that is correct so maybe someone could explain how safety and privacy is maintained if there are only girls present?

Because unlike you, the vast majority of women and girls feel more comfortable with only girls/women present when they are in a vulnerable situation such as getting changed.

Got it yet?

The rights of the male bodied child overriding the rights of the female bodied children.
Good practice for later life.
If the girls complain they are told they are being transphobic or should show more empathy.

Girls often feel a little uncomfortable changing in front of other girls.
That is magnified 100x changing in front of boys, even if those boys think they are girls.

When we went on school trips in Year 5/6, girls and boys were in separate rooms/dorms. Only girls could share with other girls. Sensible, safer.