Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

999 replies

Only13percentleft · 11/03/2019 15:21

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Absurditi · 13/03/2019 07:27

Girlguiding has not chosen 'to go mixed sex'. They are merely not excluding transgender individuals, which they cannot legally do.

So they do, in fact, become mixed sex, since a transgirl is male.

Absurditi · 13/03/2019 07:31

more of a threat than girls and non trans with a clear CRB. Being male or trans does not make you a threat by default.

Males are more violent, all the stats show this. They are more risk.

Weetabixandshreddies · 13/03/2019 07:36

So to be clear, what you are all saying is that excluding males from GG makes it safe? There will be no assaults or unwanted touching or sexual behaviour? And all of the girls present will be quite happy to get changed in front of everyone else present because the need for privacy only exists in the presence of males?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 13/03/2019 07:39

I'll tell you whats odd

As most people on FWR know im pretty middle of the road on this subject, i dont agree with everything more GC women say and im still feeling my way, so i tend to stick mainly to the OP

The OP made very few posts and i was very interested in her POTENTIAL reasons for not letting dd go to brownies, specifically the sexual assault and looked after child one

I think, and apologies if wrong, that ive only managed to get one 'yay...lets make guides unisex' poster to tell me which of the 4 reasons they woukd accept. And apparently a 10 year old rape or sexual assault victim doesnt doesnt cut it, though they did accept the looked after child one

i think some people haven't even looked at the reasons, they just yell bigot. And I probably would be lurking on the thread if it wasnt for those two reasons

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 13/03/2019 07:39

Oh and people get up really early!!!

RockyFlintstone · 13/03/2019 07:41

So to be clear, what you are all saying is that excluding males from GG makes it safe? There will be no assaults or unwanted touching or sexual behaviour? And all of the girls present will be quite happy to get changed in front of everyone else present because the need for privacy only exists in the presence of males?

A lot of girls at the upper end of Brownie age are fairly uncomfortable getting changed in front of anyone else. I remember the way we all contorted ourselves getting changed at my all girls school so that no one saw anything. However, that is not a reason to start letting males into GG. As uncomfortable as I was/am getting changed in front of other females, I would be way more uncomfy getting changed in front of males.

It's really not that difficult to understand is it?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 13/03/2019 07:41

mum

I went to bed so missed your question

I know that the vast majority or even all of the FWR regulars think that gender dysphoria exists

Personally...i don't believe you can be born in the wrong body. I do believe that you can feel like you have been born in the wrong body. I dont know about anyone else

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 13/03/2019 07:43

So to be clear, what you are all saying is that excluding males from GG makes it safe?

NO!!

Can people please stop saying 'you all'!!!!

Stop putting words in peoples mouths!

And saying silly things

Damntheman · 13/03/2019 07:48

Transgirls are not male.

I continue to be incredulous that people can 'not believe' in things that are medically proven. It's a bit like 'not believing' in vaccines really.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 13/03/2019 07:49

No comment on the reasons then damn?

10IAR · 13/03/2019 07:51

They're not female, however much people want us to say they are.

I have sympathy with gender dysphoria, and I think there's an enormous difference between someone who has GD and those who take advantage of self ID.

Two separate groups of people, currently shoved under the same umbrella.

Until the dangerous one is no longer under that umbrella, I won't stop calling for change.

It's that simple.

Has anyone realised that it's solely women and girls being told they're bigots and that their spaces are no longer theirs?

This issue isn't affecting men, only women.

drspouse · 13/03/2019 07:52

Transgirls are not male.
Either you're like a large number of the population and think transgirls are born female...
Or you are just very very confused.
Transgirls are boys who wish they are girls. Born male, male till they die.

10IAR · 13/03/2019 07:53

I continue to be incredulous that people can 'not believe' in things that are medically proven

It has been medically proven that you cannot change your biological sex.

You can have an operation in order to change your physical appearance.

sackrifice · 13/03/2019 07:57

Transgirls are not male.

I continue to be incredulous that people can 'not believe' in things that are medically proven. It's a bit like 'not believing' in vaccines really.

If you do a twitter search on 'transgirls' I guarantee you will see plenty of adult human male penises.

In my book, I know i am a bit old fashioned - penises are the male sex organ.

if you have an explanation as to how a child born male is at any point in their life 'not male' then please educate me. Because not only is the term 'transgirls' obscuring the sex of these 'transgirls' but also the age.

N0rdicStar · 13/03/2019 07:58

Abuse very often doesn’t include violence, do you really not know that.

So aside from using a loo which is indeed a private place for those bothered what do you suggest gg do?

Isolation with a placard on their own isolation tent, so said child feels even more ostracised from society. Nice, lovely bit of empathy. Wouldn’t want my dd involved in something like that and I know a whole load of others who woukd feel the same.

The policy is there loud and clear. You are making a fuss not your dd. You can’t have your way do you’ll have to suck it up which is what I have to do when our Brown Owl bangs on about Christianity and the CommonWealth.

GerryblewuptheER · 13/03/2019 07:59

So why isnt a simple blood test or brain scan a diagnostic tool then?

Why do they need self ID?

sackrifice · 13/03/2019 08:00

So to be clear, what you are all saying is that excluding males from GG makes it safe? There will be no assaults or unwanted touching or sexual behaviour? And all of the girls present will be quite happy to get changed in front of everyone else present because the need for privacy only exists in the presence of males?

No.

What people are saying is that if Girl Guides is no longer a single sex organisation, they need to adequately risk assess for that and be clear with the parents and girls that this is the case.

That is assuming they have done any risk assessments at all.

Absurditi · 13/03/2019 08:01

Transgirls are not male.
And I'm not a size 14. We all have wishes.

sackrifice · 13/03/2019 08:01

Nice, lovely bit of empathy

Why does empathy for boys always, always trump empathy for girls?

It is institutionalised. And very depressing.

McTufty · 13/03/2019 08:02

I’ve already said the risk of sexual assault is low but I am concerned about girls feeling uncomfortable. I would have.

I’m not averse to the idea of trans girls doing brownies - playing ladders in the church hall on a Thursday evening may not cause any problems, but I’m concerned it may exclude girls from strict religious backgrounds? - but if GG are going to include trans girls they need to engage their brains about overnight sleeping. The trans girl could sleep in their own tent or with a child who didn’t object and this wouldn’t cause the same problem.

However we don’t get as far as whether that would be an acceptable compromise because GG are inteansigent in their view that trans girls are to be prioritised over girls.

Ereshkigal · 13/03/2019 08:07

Transgirls are not male.

I continue to be incredulous that people can 'not believe' in things that are medically proven. It's a bit like 'not believing' in vaccines really.

Oh go on, let's see this medical proof that biologically male people aren't male.

Ereshkigal · 13/03/2019 08:08

However we don’t get as far as whether that would be an acceptable compromise because GG are inteansigent in their view that trans girls are to be prioritised over girls.

This is the problem.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 13/03/2019 08:11

I dont think you have a leg to stand on with your empathy nordic

Two of the reasons given should mean that people have empathy for the mother and dd

But lots of people dont seem to care

Datun · 13/03/2019 08:12

The boys aren't being assessed is no risk because there are 10, they're not being acknowledged at all.

That's the problem.

People aren't viewing them in the same way they will an adult male, obviously. But they are pointing out that peer on peer assault is a serious issue.

(It's already in issue for the girls by calling at peer on peer. When it's overwhelmingly boy on girl.)

It's remarkable that people are only thinking of this one boy. Or maybe not given Julie Bentley, until recently the head of the girl guides, is close friends with Simon Blake, a trustee of Stonewall.

It's a far more likely situation that this one boy will be encountered by many girls who would rather he wasn't there. Many girls who may already have experienced unwanted attention at school.

But again, if they know in advance, they can make an informed decision. Likewise their parents.

It's the not knowing that is the most chilling.

You have to remember, that the people who advised Maria Miller, included a male born individual who promoted extreme pornography - injuries to the breasts vaginas and anuses of women, and vehemently campaigned to have the age of the participants legally lowered.

Who also apparently has advised the girl guides on their safeguarding policy

They also included the likes of Jess Bradley who exposed his penis in public and has Ben 10 being anally raped on his website.

They also included advice from action for trans-health, who wants all trans people released from prison, and to be taught how to do surgery on one another (yes they're unhinged - but the government consulted them, nonetheless).

Amy Challinor has been roundly criticised by the firm employed by the Lib Dems for not having a clue about safeguarding, and also has a nappy fetish plastered from one end of the Internet to the other. They also apparently advised the girl guides. They are also on stonewalls trans advisory team.

I can assert, categorically, that the last people any of these individuals care about is women and girls.

Their raison d'etre is to target anything female, and make it include males.

From adolescent online bra services, to lesbian restaurants, rape refuges to female only swimming pools, and now the bloody girl guides and brownies.

Don't you think it's telling that there is a perfectly good mixed sex alternative in the scouts, but that's not good enough?

Groups meant for small and adolescent girls are no longer possible.

It's laughable that people say go set up your own.

That's what they did. And this is what happens.

When Harriet Harman was on for a web chat, and I was new to this, I asked a question. I asked, so are you saying that it's now no longer possible for females to meet with other females, without a male there, if that male demands to be there? (Officially).

And she didn't answer. In the entire web chat it was ignored. People asking what she was scared of, why she wouldn't answer.

And now we know.

The answer is yes.

TeenTimesTwo · 13/03/2019 08:14

Standard safeguarding is that male and female children are separated in overnight accommodation, and toilets from about the age of 8.

Just because a boy feels they are a girl, it shouldn't overrule the standard safeguarding rules. Especially without the knowledge and consent of the parents of the girls.

The wishes of the one do not override the safeguarding of the many.