AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

I know mumsnet has been infiltrated by a bizzare subset of people who rejoice in excluding trans people, but most of the world has moved past this.

You're deluding yourself. Check any recent poll where they make clear that it's being asked that male bodied people use female spaces.

'Why cant a girl get dressed in a penis free zone' - the very reason that most cases of sexual abuse and impropriety happen in homes and from people in the extended family group

In order to protect themselves no adults should be disrobing in front of children, Brown Owl included.

Jimmy Saville was a pradophile,that doesn’t make every man who works with children a paedophile. The female nursery worker currently in jail for child abuse and taking indecent photos was a oaedophike that doesn’t make all women a paedophile. I hope you’re checking up on the guiding policy of mobile phones during these events as frankly they are far more of a threat.

Liking any trans in the vacinity of children or working with children to Jummy Saville is just appalling and evidence of extreme transphobia.

So you agree they should be able to?

Then why do you think boys should be sleeping with girls at guide camp then?

Not understanding why boys and trans adults with a clear CRB are deemed more of a threat than girls and non trans with a clear CRB. Being male or trans does not make you a threat by default.

TRAs are currently campaigning for a number of things, some will seem contradictory because not all TRAs are campaigning for the exact same things.

a) all trans people to be removed from prison and their criminal records wiped

b) criminal records of all trans people to be wiped if the crime they commited identifies their previous gender (I'm not a legal expert but I can't think of anything other than rape that identifies a previous gender)

So would you be happy if the helpers at your daughter's brownie group included Karen White and Ian Huntley?

Abusers abuse. Abusers go to great lengths to abuse and to get them selves in a position where they can abuse.

We know at least one rapist has had an influence on a writing trans policy for a major charity and that charity has advised GG.

That policy includes not telling girls or their parents that they may be sharing sleeping accommodation, showers, toilets with some people who are male but 'feel like' they are girls.

If there really is no danger of assault, abuse or a girl not feeling comfortable with that then why is the policy for a leader taking a male child to camp so different?

There will be plenty of penis free toilets. You make the best of it like you do on any family camping trip or holiday. If you don’t like it you don’t go, hardly a hardship. Many many Brownies don’t go on camp.

So its unreasonable fir girls to expect a girl only space at the girl guides?

Boys are more important

Got it

In that case women pose far more of a risk.Going by posts on here women can do no wrong and all the ills of the world are found with men and trans. Women do abuse and women are most likely to work with children. But we’ll just try to iignore that.

You're not sad, you're transphobic.
YABU and bigoted.

Sorry, but it's not 2017 anymore, so the magic words 'transphobic' and 'bigoted' aren't going to work - you are going to have to come up with an actual argument.

Male feelings are always more important, Gerry.

Sorry, but it's not 2017 anymore, so the magic words 'transphobic' and 'bigoted' aren't going to work - you are going to have to come up with an actual argument.

Quite!

Boys aren’t there. A trans child may or may not be there. Thankfully gg shows a bit of empathy and doesn’t believe in engaging in witch hunts. Good skills for girls and boys to learn.

And you have not answered the question about , even without danger being a factor,

Why cant girls have privacy or dignity and change amongst other girls ?

Why are you arguing against that?

In that case women pose far more of a risk.Going by posts on here women can do no wrong and all the ills of the world are found with men and trans. Women do abuse and women are most likely to work with children. But we’ll just try to iignore that.

98% of sexual offences are perpetrated by men. Ninety. Eight. Per. Cent. Do you understand simple statistics? Do you understand what safeguarding means?

What do you think a child with a penis is if not a boy?

Going by posts on here women can do no wrong

No one has said that. They said that male people are far more likely to commit sexual violence statistically. Is this straw manning really the best you can do?

Girl guides was set up to support girls. However they present or conform, or not.

It was set up to empower girls, to motivate girls, to inspire girls.

I think you have a very romanticised vision here.

I very much doubt girls were welcome however they presented. Are you saying that GG, when it was set up, openly welcomed lesbian girls? At a time when being gay was illegal?

And it was set up to inspire and empower girls? I was a brownie and guide in the 70s and 80s. Our badges included childcare, homemaker, cook, sewing. We learnt how to sew on buttons and clean shoes. Very empowering.

You’re so warped in your ideology that you don’t consider you might have a weird obsession over this that most people don’t share.
Which is why it’s such a shock when you leave the echo chamber of feminism and realise that a lot of people aren’t worshiping your greatness and so have to resort to likening 7,8,9 year old boys/transgirls to Jimmy Saville for the real shock factor.
Graphista The stats I posted of kids committing sexual abuse was based on reports only - not convictions, I already said I don’t think conviction rates are reliable for a clear picture on sexual offences.
Calling people MRA’s because they don’t agree is also narcissistic.
As stated many time there are times you do a risk assessment. Boys under 10 are less of a risk than a woman according to statistics. Most people will not assess them as a risk unless they have political or personal motivations for doing so.
Religious/local authority exemptions depend on what criteria you’re using. For example the Muslim council of Britain has no official stand on transgender people. Many Muslim authority’s in Islamic countries believe transgender people were born in the wrong body (this is mainly from a homophobic standpoint though, which I don’t agree with)
The local authoritys also have a trans inclusive policy and would not penalise you for letting your child share with a trans girl.
The issue is what your beliefs and political views are on the issue.
You don’t like it, that is fine and valid and enough of a reason for you, doesn’t mean your opinion is correct.
Boys that will be at brownies are at a maximum one year older than the age you can still get changed in the woman’s/girls changing room AS A BOY.

Boys aren’t there. A trans child may or may not be there. Thankfully gg shows a bit of empathy and doesn’t believe in engaging in witch hunts. Good skills for girls and boys to learn.

A good skill for all children to learn, including "trans children" is that not everything is about them and others need to be considered too.

And can you post a link showing that girls will be traumstised by pulling on a pair of pjs in the same supervised tent as a child they will in most likelihood class as a friend. Ime children are far more enlightened than most adults Oh and exact numbers of girls raped in primary school by boys.

Ah yes, girls who don't want to get changed in front of males are just 'unenlightened'. Got it.

As stated many time there are times you do a risk assessment. Boys under 10 are less of a risk than a woman according to statistics. Most people will not assess them as a risk unless they have political or personal motivations for doing so.

As people said, it's not just about assault, it's about privacy and dignity. Most schools, if they have provision, start segregating for PE changing before the age of 10, because around the age of 8/9 most children become uncomfortable changing in front of the opposite sex. School residentials in primary school are separated into boy/girl for sleeping arrangements. Why do you think that is?

Boys under 10 are less of a risk than a woman according to statistics.

Have you grasped that this is about more than just statistical likelihood of children to commit sexual assault? Why don't you think girls (or women) deserve privacy and dignity?

And girl guides was set up because a group of girls stormed a boy scout jamboree and demanded their own group. Which is quite ironic really given the opinion that it is always boys barging in to take over girls things. The cry on here is always that if boys/men want something that women have then they should set it up for themselves.

Have you grasped that this is about more than just statistical likelihood of children to commit sexual assault? Why don't you think girls (or women) deserve privacy and dignity

The worst thing is even in the unlikely event if something happening. No one woulod stand up and think " shit we better re think this"
What happens when women are girls are assaulted in any situation. " what was she doing out alone" " why did she go knowing there were men/boys there" " why didnt she scream/ say something" " what was she wearing"

Then when they finish blaming the victim, they start on the family. " why did her mum.let her go there"

YY, Gerry.