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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

999 replies

Only13percentleft · 11/03/2019 15:21

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

OP posts:
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7
Datun · 12/03/2019 23:15

MumUnderTheMoon

In the UK a penis has to be involved for it to be called rape.

Sexual assault of the same calibre will be dealt with just as seriously though. But if you hear the word rape, it's about a penis.

MumUnderTheMoon · 12/03/2019 23:16

Thanks Datun for your response to my genuine question. This is obviously, for some, a very loaded topic and I am genuinely interested to understand people's points of view.

GerryblewuptheER · 12/03/2019 23:16

Also I have never said here that men are not responsible for the majority of assaults on women and by the way men, boys and girls, but that to pretend that women do not also pose a risk is completely naive

No we know some women do offend. We also know.its our problem.to sort out. Unlike.men who wont sort their own shit out and who think the answer is to make women solve the problem.of Male violence by taking in all groups of people men might attack at great personal cost to our own safety
.and we r sick of it.

Men need to sort their shit out

AgnesBadenPowell · 12/03/2019 23:17

No problem Gerry I think we are suffering form the same level of frustration.

And you're absolutely right. Even if there was no violent crime of sex offences perpetrated against women and girls anywhere - it still doesn't mean that girls should be denied the opportunity to change their clothes away from males. Especially in an all girls organisation.

MumUnderTheMoon · 12/03/2019 23:19

Datun
I know that from the position of the legal statute that a penis must be involved for it to be rape. My point was that legislation often doesn't give credit to women where it is due and just because statutes are slow in catching up doesn't mean that a woman can't rape someone.

OccasionalKite · 12/03/2019 23:21

Yes, indeed, GerryblewuptheER.

Safety, privacy, dignity - why are women and girls being denied basic safety, privacy, dignity?

(and a load of other stuff too)

Graphista · 12/03/2019 23:27

Sorry long (and that's even with heavy editing)

@agnesbadenpowell and others railing against this ludicrous misogynist policy and its execution - excellent posts.

Just heartbreaking what's happening to the organisation and how they're treating leaders who've VOLUNTARILY given of their time,care and effort over many years. It's shocking and disgusting that those leaders are now not only being ignored but vilified for doing what they were asked to do - provide a safe welcoming organisation for GIRLS.

They SHOULDN'T BLOODY HAVE TO start a new organisation to provide this because IT ALREADY EXISTED until the TRA's stuck their noses in!

"It's entirely about silencing females." Totally agree

"Scouting also doesn't make this clear to parents before they send their children away." Wtf! I thought (hoped) they had a better grip on this?

Anyone know the policies of other youth organisations like girls brigade? Cadets?

Surviving and IWasAVentureScout Flowers

boys/men are more likely to sexually assault girls/women at all ages - that's not scaremongering over overreacting that's fact.

Not educating children on such matters doesn't preserve their childhood, it makes them more vulnerable.

"Don't think that 10yos are incapable of such things." Yes people seem to have conveniently forgotten James bulgers killers!

Girls/women have fought for many years for safety, privacy and dignity. This policy from an organisation purporting to be supportive of girls while actively undoing that progression is utterly disgusting.

"Safeguarding policies should he written by people with experience in the field and who have the best interests of people at heart" totally agree - NOT by those with a political agenda that contradicts this.

There is NO law I'm aware of that OBLIGES the GG to do as they are - plenty that they could refer to if they did the right thing and chose to remain a single sex organisation.

That statement Gucci linked to is shockingly bad!

Safeguarding IS a major issue and concern but they've completely ignored the issues of privacy, dignity,

The hypocrisy in this paragraph alone

"Following a number of complaints about two individuals, an independent investigation concluded that both had breached our Volunteer Code of Conduct and our Social Media policy because they did not, and indicated that they were not willing to follow Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity Policy and actively encouraged others to do the same. We are always willing to listen to feedback about our policies, and remain open to reviewing them wherever necessary." Is astounding!!

"This decision was not based on their personal views, but on the way they conducted themselves." Bullshit!!

"Girlguiding is not a transgender campaign group" doing a damn good job of looking like one!!

"Under the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 the sharing of personal data of children is afforded greater protection, so we take great care to uphold confidentiality. Any information about an individual’s transgender history is treated in line with the Data Protection Act 2018 / General Data Protection Regulation 2018(GDPR) and Girlguiding’s Data Protection policy." Can someone legal please tell me what happens if GDPR & safeguarding necessities clash? Eg what would happen if while a member of GG someone were to become under investigation or even convicted for possible safeguarding issues, are GG not allowed to tell parents because of GDPR?

"whilst staying focused on our core values and purpose" more bullshit!

"but to respect the person's right to identify as they like." Its possible to respect trans people WITHOUT denying the rights of girls/women. Decent trans people get this.

"This is ending in the courts, and I see lots of noughts at the end of the damages figures." I can see this happening too, unfortunately I believe it will take several lawsuits until certain people start to see sense

"Never being alone with a child- I think you’ll find most teachers and TAs spend time alone with children every day. Schools wouldn’t function if they didn’t." You've both misread AND are unaware how schools operate now.

It's rare there's only 1 adult in a class especially at primary age.

"Never being alone with A child" ie it never being the case it's JUST 1 adult 1 child. That's been standard safeguarding protocol since before I left GG almost 20 years ago!

The homophobia against lesbian and bisexual women from trans activists just proves to me that it's barely disguised militant misogyny fuelling them NOT a genuine interest in providing rights and equality to decent trans people (of which I know a good many and actually they feel the TRA's are actually screwing them right over)

"You're so determined to be "woke" you're half asleep!" More like in a coma!

.
"It baffles me how people are so willing to ignore girls privacy and right to personal boundaries. It's quite sickening really." Sadly I think this development has simply allowed many misogynists to be more blatant and not all misogynists are men either.

"But Stoney we live in an inclusive society" that has legal exceptions to protect certain groups as it should, safety should trump ideology every time

"One should always assume trans people will be welcomed everywhere" why? Would you genuinely accept a self Id female who has done nothing other than verbally declare they are female into your communal changing room? I wouldn't. I deserve and want to feel safe and that my dignity and privacy is respected. Women have fought long and hard to even get CLOSE to achieving that and this utter nonsense is completely undoing all that work.

"And the same people are telling the girl guides that they must keep it a secret." Yep and what kind of people LIKE secrets in relation to the safety of girls and women?

"I don't send my kids to brownies and guides to 'get away from the male gaze'. They go cos its a laugh" so why don't they go to Cubs instead? Just as enjoyable and active.

What IS the difference?

"We are talking shoving a pair of pjs on are we not." How on earth do YOU get dressed? How do you put pj's on WITHOUT undressing first? Especially if you're in wet, muddy outdoor gear? In a limited space? Have you ever even camped?

"Loos are there anyway" Jesus Christ! and?!! What does that mean? Are you suggesting that the girls who don't want to change in front of a boy hide away to change? !!

"in the same supervised tent as a child they will in most likelihood class as a friend." The scenario posted in the op is that this is a large multi unit event. In all likelihood many of the children won't even have met each other until they arrive

Generationrenter - in addition to your figs being debunked, child offenders rarely even become part of official stats because they're often not prosecuted. They're frequently dealt with by agencies outside the criminal justice system. That's even when the victim is able to report and is considered a reliable witness.

It's seriously worrying the lack of understanding of safeguarding of girls from people who either have actually said they have daughters or may have.

OccasionalKite · 12/03/2019 23:27

I think it's tragic when a movement originally called the Girl Guides (not "GG"), designed for girls and women only, is sideling and discouraging women and girls in favour of men and boys.

AgnesBadenPowell · 12/03/2019 23:41

Sorry Kite, I use GG as shorthand. As one of the leaders who got booted out (and bear in mind I have never commented on whether transgirls should be in Guiding, just in the safeguarding issues that arise when a single sex organisation becomes mixed and and no one in authority acknowledges it) I know more than most how important a girl only space is.

Agnes Baden Powell is my heroine. She gave girls - the "girly" ones, the non conforming ones, lesbian ones, girls from all social classes (the Queen was a guide!) and from all faiths - the chance to flourish, to make friends, to learn new skills, to take up outdoor pursuits usually reserved for boys. And all in a safe, female only environment. No worries about conforming to feminine norms, of being subjected to unwanted attention or sexual harassment.

If I could talk to her now, I'd thank her for all she did and say sorry for not being able to do more.

OccasionalKite · 13/03/2019 00:02

AgnesBadenPowell, you have no reason to apologise to me, at all at all, re. "GG" shorthand! But I think the point could stand - "GG" could be anything , but Girl Guides used to be dedicated to girls and had Girls in its name.

You are actually one of the women who alerted me to this whole mess, with measured and well-written posts defending the rights of girls and women.

I have a great deal of respect for you!

Datun · 13/03/2019 00:03

If anyone is wondering, or concerned, or petrified as to why children are showing up to gender clinics in their droves, here's why.

The links are disturbing but turning a blind eye isn't good enough.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3531622-4thWaveNow-has-some-incredibly-disturbing-stuff-from-Facebook?watched=1&msgid=85545008#85545008

SilverBirchTree · 13/03/2019 00:22

YABU and bigoted. This is a low risk situation. You're forcing your daughter to miss out so you can make a political point.

I know mumsnet has been infiltrated by a bizzare subset of people who rejoice in excluding trans people, but most of the world has moved past this.

They're little kids. They will be supervised. They will be in a big group. What on earth do you think this other child could do to your daughter?

OccasionalKite · 13/03/2019 00:43

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Datun · 13/03/2019 00:53

What on earth do you think this other child could do to your daughter?

Why does he have to do anything?

My father in law is delightful, will you let him watch you disrobe?

If my seven-year-old daughter does not want to get undressed with or shower with 10 year old boys, why should she be told she's a bigot and to be quiet because it's a secret.

Seriously, people have lost their minds over this.

Datun · 13/03/2019 00:59

Why does the NSPCC recommend sex segregation, even for siblings, from eight years old onwards. Unless they are trans.

Why do girl guides not allow boys, or volunteer's sons, to bunk with the girls, unless they are trans?

Why do youth hostels provide sex segregated bedrooms, and uphold sex segregation, unless a boy says he is trans?

Why do Swim England say that men can be women and get undressed in the women's changing room, but women who say they are men have to cover their breasts?

What's in all these magic words that somehow mean women and girls have no boundaries and their consent means nothing?

Yes of course you can have sex segregation, boundaries and consent, unless any male says some magic words, then you're a bigot.

whatwouldyoubelikeat28 · 13/03/2019 03:24

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GerryblewuptheER · 13/03/2019 06:30

So sex segregation is transphobic?

The mras are out in force arent they.

People actually fight for the right to have a penis infiltrate everywhere

donquixotedelamancha · 13/03/2019 06:30

You're not sad, you're transphobic.
YABU and bigoted.

This is so true:

Muslims and others who require sex segregation for religious reasons- transphobic.

People who work in child protection that have tried to discuss possible problems- transphobic.

Transsexuals who support sex segregation- transphobic.

The only open-minded response to these issues is to shout 'bigot' at anyone who tries to discuss it.

10IAR · 13/03/2019 06:36

My father in law is delightful, will you let him watch you disrobe?

This is a great example!

Here's another. My dad is a wonderful man, kind, gentle, about as threatening as Santa Claus.

Did I want him in the room when I was giving birth? Did I hell. Nothing to do with feeling threatened or scared, but I wanted privacy.

So tell me again how that makes me a bigot?

Vulpine · 13/03/2019 06:38

Asking silverbirch if she/he/they (let's be inclusionary!), supports jimmy saville, is really rude if not a little unhinged.

Vulpine · 13/03/2019 06:42

Statistically your father in law is more of a danger to your daughter than some trans kid at brownie camp.

10IAR · 13/03/2019 06:43

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Ereshkigal · 13/03/2019 06:49

Why does he have to do anything?

My father in law is delightful, will you let him watch you disrobe?

If my seven-year-old daughter does not want to get undressed with or shower with 10 year old boys, why should she be told she's a bigot and to be quiet because it's a secret.

Seriously, people have lost their minds over this.

This. Why do people have such a blind spot over this?

GerryblewuptheER · 13/03/2019 06:49

Statistically your father in law is more of a danger to your daughter than some trans kid at brownie camp

Why does there have be a danger.

Why xant a girl get dressed in a penis free zone?

Why are boys who have somewhere else to go so much more important that someone should risk losing their foster daughter over it?

Ereshkigal · 13/03/2019 06:51

Signed, another woman who doesn't want to be naked with her dad, brothers, uncle, any of her male colleagues, or ANY OTHER MALE PERSON.

That ok?