AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

vulpine

No

But they do get involved in looked after children situations

Which was one of the examples the OP used for dd not being able to go to camp

Of course we dont know which reason was the right one...and some would argue it shouldn't matterr

Most wouldn’t care, there will be loos if in the unlikely event a trans child was there and in your tent. We are talking shoving a pair of pjs on are we not.

That is what we call a mitigation for males being present. Bingo! We got there in the end.

It wouldn't be needed of course if there were just females in the tent.

Datun and others, the patience you display in the face of such obtuseness is genuinely inspiring. I do think the cause is lost in this particular case, but total respect for the restrained and measured approach.

Now that Nordic Star has confirmed that mitigations need to be made for males in tents, I am sure they will be on the phone to GG first thing tomorrow to ask why they are not putting mitigations into place when males are present.

And my work is done. Thanks Nordic Star.

'Restrained and measured approach' - is that a joke?

How old are brownies? They move to guides at 10 don’t they? Or have I got that wrong? How many sexual assaults have been committed by boys under the age of 10?
Struggling to see what risk assessment places boys under 10 in a controlled environment as a big enough risk for non-attendance.

How many sexual assaults have been committed by boys under the age of 10?

Girls are getting raped in primary so...what do you think?

Good? Bad? Indifferent?

Generationrenter

You said referring to gender dysphoric children as pretending there are boys who ‘think like a girl’ is insulting

I didn't mention gender dysphoric children.

I said making the guides mixed sex by pretending it's because there are boys who think like girls.

It's mixed sex. They are pretending that gender is a thing on which you should segregate.

I'm not referring to gender dysphoric children as children who are pretending anything. I'm saying pretending it's not mixed sex is the thing.

It’s not needed if a trans child is there and most wouldn’t care two shiny shites. Loos are there anyway not laid on especially incase of a rogue trans child in attendance. As such in the unlikely event there is a child traumstised by the attendance of a trans child when pulling on a pair of pjs they can take themsves off. Not needed but there you go.

I think what we’ll see quite soon is the strop. We know we’re beat, we’re making no sense, but it hurts so much to admit it ...

DonaldTwain

Thanks, and of course, I'm not really talking to the people are actually on this thread.

It’s not needed if a trans child is there and most wouldn’t care two shiny shites.

Can you post the link to your in-depth survey of girls and their attitudes to the opposite sex which shows they 'don't care two shiny shits' please. Thanks.

And there we see it in it’s true colours - the child who is distressed can just “take themselves off”.
Truly repulsive.

And there we see it in it’s true colours - the child who is distressed can just “take themselves off”.

Always the way.

A thoroughly unpleasant and distasteful mindset. Would be bad enough directed at adults, but children! It beggars belief

So since this is all about risk assessment, where are the statistics that a boy under age 10 poses any more risk to your child than a woman who may be volunteering there?

datun I know perfectly well what you’re trying to say. Your views on the subject are very clear.

So since this is all about risk assessment, where are the statistics that a boy under age 10 poses any more risk to your child than a woman who may be volunteering there?

Girls are getting raped in schools, by boys. Not by female teachers.

The thing with female sex offenders, they are so rare, that each one is a news story. Not so much girls getting raped in schools by boys. The DfE didn't even acknowledge parent's complaints.

By the age of 10, most children are uncomfortable changing in front of someone of the opposite sex. Most schools, if they have the provision, start segregating for PE changing around year 4 time.

Why bother with single sex spaces if they are not actually single sex? And worse, not telling parents that the 'single sex' space their child is in is not actually single sex?

It's extraordinary how ANY attempt to centre girls ends up getting side-tracked into centering boys.

Girls have a legal right to sex-segregated spaces when they are getting changed, sleeping or using bathroom facilities.

Boys with gender dysmorphia or who are otherwise very not at ease with their bodies have a legal right to sex-segregated spaces when they are getting changed, sleeping or using bathroom facilities.

Yet, over and over again, girls are asked to 'budge up' and make way for boys. Then the needs being considered become just those of the boys.

And when the girls question, complain or object they're labelled bigots or transphobic.

And can you post a link showing that girls will be traumstised by pulling on a pair of pjs in the same supervised tent as a child they will in most likelihood class as a friend. Ime children are far more enlightened than most adults Oh and exact numbers of girls raped in primary school by boys.

Getting naked and your possibly pubescent and changing body is a bit more than “pulling in a pair of PJs”.

I still don’t understand how getting changed in front of a male trans girl is different to getting changed in front of a boy when it comes to girls’ privacy.

So if they’re upset and uncomfortable that’s ok as long as they aren’t “traumatised”?

The thing with female sex offenders, they are so rare, that each one is a news story. Not so much girls getting raped in schools by boys. The DfE didn't even acknowledge parent's complaints
Are you saying you’re more likely to be sexually assaulted by a child under 10 than a woman? Seriously? Children getting sexually assaulted in primary school is completely unacceptable, no matter what. however, you’re very mistaken.

I did look it up and it said there were 456 reports of sexual abuse by children age 10 or under (doesn’t specify sex but we can make an educated guess)
The last figure I can find per year of woman was 2009 where it was 3,465 woman. So statistically you’re 659% more likely to be sexually abused by a woman than a child under 10.

Be worried about both, tackle the awful abuse children are facing in schools. But don’t lie to make your point.

I wish Mumsnet would keep these Feminist anti-trans threads in the Feminist boards as I can avoid them then. The feminists keep trying to sneak them in under the radar.
Tolerance is needed as is some consideration of the feelings of trans people.
However it is putting a lot of people off feminism as they come across as really horrible intolerant people.
I used to think I was a feminist but now I would never identify as one as they all seem so horrible and anti male and anti trans.

Nordic I can post a link to the Equality Act which stipulates the legal right to single sex facilities, but you must be conversant with that to have views on these issues.

It's about girls' legal rights, not some hyperbole about 'being traumatised'.