AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

Read that carefully. It doesn't really say much, is a bit self contradictory and uses the weird "you all said it was OK" stat, when the question asked was not "Do you think it is OK for boys who want to be girls to share all facilities with your daughters? Oh, and we won't tell if/when that happens as we will consider them to be girls. Is that OK too?"

Their stance is clear though - We are inclusive, deal with it!

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person. The statement that is designed to make all parents/guardians like OP back off... their worries, their legal obligations ignored. Why?

Unless someone has stats of sexual assaults committed by brownies?

Good heavens.

McTufty Yes! As I said, a sentence designied to make parents back off and shut up!

It totally misses the point and re-centres any discussion!

curiosity

Totally, makes you actually spend time reiterating no issue with trans people etc (when you never said you did) and stops you from dealing with the actual point. It’s so transparent.

It’s also to erroneously characterise any dissent as bigotry.

I think that GG has been clear that it is a trans-inclusive group. I don't think it has tried to hide that. I'm sure they realise that this will mean that some families who object to the inclusion of trans people will leave. That's a decision every family gets to make. It isn't fair to say they aren't giving out information, though. They have been very clear about their stance

They have NOT been clear about their stance! It took an article in the Times, an open letter signed by 1000s of people and the chucking out of two leaders before GG made any substantive comments. Until that point, the policy was tucked away on the website.

Do you know how the policy was launched? Via an email to all leaders (not parents) and even then it just said that the equality and diversity policy has changed. It completely passed most leaders by, let alone parents. It was picked up in a few papers but in a "boys can now join brownies" sensationalist way that didn't hold GG to account for the safeguarding failures.

And before you spout nonsense about inclusion, please remember that it's leaders like me who campaigned for transboys (ie female) to be able to stay in. Girlguiding relented and changed the policy again to allow all legally female children to remain in November 2018.

'Submit to indoctrination, child. What do you mean you won’t? You’re scared, upset, feeling your privacy is being invaded? BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT!!Am I getting this right Gucci? Do tell us all how it’s done.'

Our dc all have transgender aquaintances either at school, colleges or work. It is not an issue for any of them. They have been taught that they may not agree that people can change sex or gender but to respect the person's right to identify as they like. If I was as uptight as the op then clearly GG is not the place for her DC.

Fwiw I don't agree with transwomen competing with women but brownie camp? Come on it should not even be an issue.

When theres beavers then why is keeping brownies xx only an issue. Not like there isn't somewhere else to go is there.

Personally I find submitting to someone elses validation and that's all it's about cos as much as they bang on about their safety they wont take a third space or a separate space in the boys side, a huge issue.

Girls are being groomed to accept penises in their spaces until there are no spaces left.

And images of harmless little children and their daily mail sad faces is now they started it all.

Yabu
Women and girls can be abusers too.
Not understanding why boys and trans adults with a clear CRB are deemed more of a threat than girls and non trans with a clear CRB. Being male or trans does not make you a threat by default.

The risk would be negligible. Many choices you make for children have a slight risk. As far as I am concerned a negligible risk is not a reason to not let my children do things. Far more risk from going on a regular sleep over or letting parents whose driving license you haven’t read drive your kids home.

And re not being a good parent🙄 frankly making such a fuss makes you far more questionable as a parent.

If you don’t like it leave. GG clearly isn’t for you. It annoys me my dd’s friends who are boys could t go but I had to suck it up.

Our dc all have transgender aquaintances either at school, colleges or work. It is not an issue for any of them. They have been taught that they may not agree that people can change sex or gender but to respect the person's right to identify as they like. If I was as uptight as the op then clearly GG is not the place for her DC.
You can respect someone's right to exist and identify as they like while still not wanting to share sleeping accommodation with them.
Do you really not see that?
Would you like to point to an organisation that CAN provide this girl with what she needs (activity, adventure, and a girl-only space)?

Then nordic

Why is it, of girls are just as bad and NAMALT why they can stay with their own sex?

So they must join the girls for their own safety because all these nasty boys will rape or beat them up. But girls are being ridiculous and hysterical thinking that a bit poses a risk to the girls?

Which is it? Kids are harmless? So let them join beavers then. Or they are dangerous hence why they need to join brownies ?

Oh and for the record.

Its about privacy and dignity too!! Another thing girls arent allowed

Gerry to be fair I think the boys want to be girls and join Brownies because they want to paint their nails/wear dresses/have long hair/play with glitter/be gentle and soft not because the boys in Beavers/Cubs are dangerous.
But it's a shame that the Brownie uniform isn't a pink skirt and Brownies go climbing and camping and swimming and if they have a mean leader like me they can't use glitter.

'Would you like to point to an organisation that CAN provide this girl with what she needs (activity, adventure, and a girl-only space)?'

But brownies is? An 8yr old transgirl is a girl. You don't have to like it or agree, but there it is.

Oh for goodness sake start you’re own club if it bothers you so much.

They’ve made their position clear, you don’t like it. Tough luck.

So you believe people can change sex then Gucci?

gucciday could you please substantiate your assertion on the law or withdraw it?

Women and girls can be abusers too.Not understanding why boys and trans adults with a clear CRB are deemed more of a threat than girls and non trans with a clear CRB. Being male or trans does not make you a threat by default

Not this again. Yes, woman and girls can abuse. It's extremely rare. Most acts of sexual violence are committed by males against females. I'm not victimising individual boys or men here; it's a fact borne out by statistics. Transwomen and girls are of the Male sex. We can't safeguard effectively by applying policies selectively. So to protect all, we separate males and females for sleeping, washing and changing.

And you're overlooking privacy and dignity. I don't think it's unreasonable for a pre teen girl to object to undressing in front of a trans girl who until 3 months ago she'd always known as a boy. It doesn't mean there's any disrespect there, they're still friends. But why does one child's need for validation override the other child's need for dignity and privacy? I'm yet to hear a compelling case for that.

gucci transgirls are not girls either in the law's eyes nor due to their biology.
Do you have another way in which you can explain that they are girls, without a circular argument (i.e. one in which you can define "girl" without saying "like a girl" - that's what we mean by a circular argument - it is like saying "that pen is black because it has the colour black")

@N0rdicStar how fucking dare you.

You are talking to women you have out in years of work, hundreds of hours of unpaid labour to an organisation they love dearly. We have given up annual leave, put our own families last to give girls the best guiding experience possible.

It's not a question of "not liking it". How dare you be so arrogant. As a leader I was responsible for the safety of the girls in my care. GG was asking me to ignore safeguarding and discriminate against other groups.

There are already lots of mixed sex youth groups. Or you could start your own. Girlguiding has over 100 years of history as a successful girl only organisation, a space for women to flourish. Membership is dropping over this.

Ye gods!

An 8yr old transgirl is a girl. You don't have to like it or agree, but there it is. Tell me how that works again?

• 8 year olds and 'wrong bodies'?

-Human being changing sex?

Oh for goodness sake start you’re own club if it bothers you so much. How many times do women need to do this? GG was set up to be for girls... now GG is for all children so women again have to go and set up and all girl association, rinse and reeat every 100 years?

For goodness sake... think it through!

If you’re teaching your children thatbpeopke can change sex and to disagree is bigotry, you’re not teaching your kids to be open-minded, Gucci. You’re teaching them the opposite.
Still waiting for you to point us to those legal provisions you were so confident about, btw ...
St

Lets say I did start a new girls only organisation. For any child with a female birth certificate, whatever their gender identity.

How long do you think it would be before I and any children involved were called bigots, transphobes, had our meetings protested, had to waste time fighting off baseless claims (because a set up like that would be completely legal), pressured to admit males who identify as girls?

I'm not easily deterred but I wouldn't expose a child to that.

Setting up a new group solves nothing because until the law is tested and groups feel confident applying lawful single sex exemptions (and charlatans stop telling charities and children that sex self ID is a legal requirement and that anyone can be born in the wrong body), every new group will be targeted and pressured. Just like GG.

What it all boils down to is yet another example of women and girls being told that despite being the majority, they must bow to the will of male bodied people unless they want to be told they're bigots, trans phobes and all the usual shite that comes with it.

It's entirely about silencing females.

Honestly- leaving aside the political point (which i broadly agree with, although with some reservations) I think your position is ridiculous and horribly unfair on your daughter. You are using her to make a political point, pretending this is about her safety in a situation which in reality is incredibly low risk (she is more likely to be a victim of abuse at a sleepover at at friend's house).

Girl guides has moved with the times. 100 years is pretty long. High time there were other clubs on the radar so knock yourself out.

Oh and don’t swear at me thanks, your bullying tone may work with others but not me. It speaks volumes.

I don’t need to start my own club thanks, don’t like the lack of boys or the Christianity aspect in Guided but in the latter they’ve moved forward and Im prepared to suck the former up. I like their stance on transgender kids so my dd won’t be going anywhere.

You may love guides but you don’t own it. If you want a club that strictly goes by your views as I said start your own. If they’re leaving in droves I’m sure you’ll do well.