AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

@beclev24 You have not read the OP's posts have you?

@N0rdicStar oh but there ARE boys in Guiding, have you not been reading the thread either?

CRB checks are used to safeguard. If a transgender adult has passed said check they pose no risk. Or are you saying all CRB checked adults in schools are potential risks and the system is null and void?

In the unlikely event that a child is not comfortable with changing in front of a trans child and one is present they can take themselves off to the loo. Sooo not a big issue.

The loo which isn't single sex either?

Girls, shut up and do as you're told by the male bodied people or remove yourself.

Pretty standard tactics.

“CRB checks are used to safeguard. If a transgender adult has passed said check they pose no risk.”
God love you. How do you get through life like this? Do you literally never open a newspaper or talk to anyone outside your little bubble?

Ps don’t tell my dd or anyone else’s kid to “ take themselves off to the loo.” Rude, presumptuous, arrogant, bullying.

@N0rdicStar this is a forum that doesn't censor language so I thank you for not to attempt to censor mine.

And as for bullying tone - I am not the one trying to bully girls out of their right to change their clothes only in front of other female children. I am telling you I disagree with you in robust terms. That is not bullying.

I hate to break it to you but Guiding doesn't belong to you, or Stonewall or Mermaids. It belongs to the girls it was set up to serve. Girl means something very specific in English law - a child with a female birth certificate. If GG wants to broaden its remit it needs to amend its Royal Charter and update its charitable objects.

I keep seeing this accusation of being "old fashioned". From where I am, it's becoming an increasingly radical position to say that some spaces are for girls only.

And moving with the times still requires organisations to act within the law. What would be your position if a parent sues GG for discrimination because it couldn't provide single sex accommodation, in line with religious beliefs?

CRB checks are used to safeguard. If a transgender adult has passed said check they pose no risk. Or are you saying all CRB checked adults in schools are potential risks and the system is null and void?

That ^^ is the most ignorant comments about safeguarding I have ever seen. DBS checks as they have been called for years now, only tell you if an individual has a past conviction. They are out of date the day after issue. It does not mean the person poses no risk.

ALL adults potentially lose a risk which is why we have safeguarding policies (like separate changing areas and bathrooms for adults, never being alone with a child).

I feel for you OP, we are in the same situation.
My daughter is desperate to go on camp, but I've been told they can not guarantee that there wont be members of the opposite sex sharing sleeping, washing and toilet facilities.
They did give me the choice of segregation for my daughter away from everyone else but that would ruin the experience for her sleeping on her own!

If one went back 100 years, while women and girls were worse off in many ways, I do not think they had to battle to convince people that sometimes their privacy, dignity and safety required them to have access to single sex spaces.
So, here we are, having a pre Victorian debate. The people who brought us to this place have a lot to fucking answer for, and answer they will. This is ending in the courts, and I see lots of noughts at the end of the damages figures.

The oldest children there will be 10. I don't see any issue with boys and girls sharing at Brownie age.

When I was at primary school a girl at my school was sexually assaulted/attempted rape by a boy also at the primary school. Don't think that 10yos are incapable of such things.

So, here we are, having a pre Victorian debate

I read a response to a trans activist who threatened we'd be on the "wrong side of history" for fighting back against what is blindingly obviously a misogynistic movement.

The response was that Nazis said the same, and look how history views them.

Extreme? Yes. But then rape threats, physical attacks and doxxing of prominent feminists is extreme.

All this effort to be "woke" and the irony is those defending it may as well be sleeping because they can't see what's happening right in front of them.

What would be your position if a parent sues GG for discrimination because it couldn't provide single sex accommodation, in line with religious beliefs?

Or when a girl ends up pregnant after sharing sleeping accommodation with a boy who identifies as a girl? Especially as the girls parents won't have been informed about the sleeping arrangement of the boy.

And before anyone starts, no I'm not talking about rape. Simply consensual sex which teenagers have been engaging in since the beginning of time.

Tbh I've been wondering how long it will take for the first teen pregnancy as a result of a boy sharing sleeping accommodation with the girls to occur since this whole mess started. I just hope everyone is ready for the fall out when it does eventually happen.

“CRB checks are used to safeguard. If a transgender adult has passed said check they pose no risk.”

Ian Huntley would have passed a dbs check I believe. So yes, they're not infallible.

NicoAndTheNiners he did pass. That's the scariest part.

Never being alone with a child- I think you’ll find most teachers and TAs spend time alone with children every day. Schools wouldn’t function if they didn’t.

Re separate changing for adults. One assumes that is happening on said camp and has nowt to do with transgender adults.

Soooo all these female guide leaders are a risk to my daughter as they may have committed a crime a day after their CRB check. Wow who knew.🙄Oh I forgot it’s just men and transgender women this applies to as women never commit crimes.🙄

I think your position is ridiculous and horribly unfair on your daughter. You are using her to make a political point, pretending this is about her safety in a situation which in reality is incredibly low risk You need to go back to page 1 or 2 - where OP explains why she has no choice (well, strongly usggests the reason and says she doesn't want to be any or clear than that).

There are, as many posters repeat often, myriad reasons for single sex spaces to exist. Including abuse, being fostered, self confidence issues, religion, just don't want to... all pefectly reasonable even if you don't agree with them all!

CRB checks are used to safeguard. If a transgender adult has passed said check they pose no risk

But I thought if someone had changed name and gender then any prior offences they made under their previous gender won't show up. It's essentially a clean slate. Isn't that how it works?

Oh I forgot it’s just men and transgender women this applies to as women never commit crimes

Women don't commit sexual offences or violent offences at anywhere near the same rate men do.

Yeah! That's why deadnaming as a 'crime' is also so perfidious. It is likely that GRC and Self ID wipes your criminal past clean!

Though I do remember some legal beagle wondering if that isn't quite as true as it sounds... anyone with a better memory or more up to date knowledge?

There will be plenty of lesbian girls in the GG movement. Are you suggesting they’ll all be at it when the lights go out? Or is that ok because they’re women? You do live in a negative world. You do realise the vast maj of children under 10( male and female)are not interested in sex.🙄

But women still do commit crimes which is why exactly the same safeguarding procedures apply to them as they do men.

When I looked into the DBS issue, trans people are supposed to call the sensitive cases office and provide previous names. DBS will check these but not put the previous name/gender on the final certificate.

I'm still not clear what happens if the person's doesn't volunteer that information. I'm sure the DBS has ways and means of checking past names and aliases - I imagine other people leave off old names from the application form too - but it's not clear.

Nice attitude to lesbians you’ve got there Nordic. And you’re the one accusing people of having hang ups. Go figure.

As a Guider who also thinks the whole "you can change your gender at will" is utterly ridiculous, I think its a bit of a non-issue at Brownie age.

But if you're worried, just go with her as a volunteer and then she won't miss out.