Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

[UnexpectedButExpected]

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

Precisely. What we’re holding Begum culpable for is upholding and succouring a barbaric, terrorist organisation. Saying all its ills are being laid at her door is inaccurate and melodramatic.

I do think she is being used as a bit of a proxy for our fear and revulsion about terrorism, though. A figure with a face and a name and a backstory we can hate.

That might be why some people are so keen to deny the existence of her babies. They make it more complicated.

And who’s responsible for that? Who’s willingly given numerous media interviews, allowed themselves to be photographed and welcomed publicity when they thought it would elicit sympathy?

Well that’s your subjective opinion Bertrand. Not fact. Personally I believe all upholders of terrorist regimes have vile views. This thread is about Begum specifically, because she has courted publicity to try to get what she wants at this particular moment in time. Simple as that. If you feel so strongly about the role of male ISIS fighters (which is absolutely worthy of discussion) then I’m surprised you haven’t started your own threads about that.

It was a cynical political point scoring exercise for a Tory government drowning in the shitshow of Brexit so they made her the bogeyman to give them a bit of relief.

Begum was with the high command of ISIS and had stayed with them until the absolute bitter end when they were just a ragtag group of the hardest core supporters. She was interviewed and when she mistakenly believed that the British had no choice but to take her back she was still vocally supportive of ISIS and refused to express regret. And that’s just what we know of, there may well be further intelligence we’re unaware of. The Kurds have claimed they have evidence of her participation in crimes against humanity and genocide.

She most certainly fits the criteria of presenting a danger if she returned.

Jack Letts has repeatedly stated his intention to return to the UK once he is released from custody of the Kurds.

It doesn’t matter what Jack Letts says he wants to do. The Kurds have already made a full deal for him to be handed over to the Canadian authorities and returned to Canada in custody for prosecution there.

There was no immediate need to revoke Begum's citizenship since it is abundantly clear she cannot make her own way to the UK and nobody expected UK forces to get her back.

Her lawyer was discussing going to Syria and returning with both of them and later just her son. And there was very much a time sensitive issue because if Bangladesh had withdrawn her Bangladeshi citizenship first then we would have been obliged to take her back as otherwise she would have been left stateless and the UK would have been forced to have her back.

I do think there’s an interesting discussion to be had here, but too much time is being wasted by the need to prove our anti terrorist credentials.

What do you think should happen to her then Bertrand? Do you still think she should be retrieved as you were arguing yesterday?

Has it never occurred to you Bertrand, that other people may be perfectly capable of factoring into their thinking that all of us are products of our environments, and the various influences on us, and on the weight of evidence still conclude that Begum is a vile individual who is responsible for her own actions?

You seem terribly patronising, as if you have some superior knowledge about cultural, gender and other influences, and the rest of us are just reacting to this in a knee jerk way.

And who’s responsible for that? Who’s willingly given numerous media interviews, allowed themselves to be photographed and welcomed publicity when they thought it would elicit sympathy?

Well actually she wasn’t initially trying to elicit sympathy. Begum initially thought she only held British citizenship and no matter what she said or did we had to accept her back into the UK.

So what she said initially was really nasty, divide stuff. Things like murder and rape being okay in Islam and not caring about seeing heads in bins etc, etc. Because Shamima, like many extremists before her, wanted to spread fear of Muslims, stir up racism, make more little Muslim kids feel rejected and sidelined and vulnerable to extremists. It was quite obvious her intent was not to come back contrite and spread a message of peace.

Unfortunately she wasn’t as clever as she thought and her bluff was called.

And this from someone who is apparently unaware there is no British consular or military presence in Syria and thinks she could be bundled into a car and driven away. I despair sometimes.

Sorry, Benjam, not you obviously.

“Has it never occurred to you Bertrand, that other people may be perfectly capable of factoring into their thinking that all of us are products of our environments, and the various influences on us, and on the weight of evidence still conclude that Begum is a vile individual who is responsible for her own actions?”

Yes of course.

I despair sometimes

Not to mention using the phrase 'perfectly simple' to describe an operation that would be risking the lives of others.

More importantly Bertram, if you were a Syrian woman, one who had lost some of their own children in the mayhem ISIS caused, one who was still stuck in a camp with no prospect of returning home, let alone being airlifted out to a comfortable western life: then what would you want to happen to her? Because really, they’re the people whose views should matter.

“Because really, they’re the people whose views should matter.”

They should matter a bloody sight more than anyone in the West seems to think. But their views on Begum are surely irrelevant?

They should matter a bloody sight more than anyone in the West seems to think. But their views on Begum are surely irrelevant?

Why? She’s in their country. Her crimes and the crimes of her cohorts were committed against them and their society. I can’t think of anybody more entitled to have a say on what happens to her or where she goes.

And anything we do sends a message to them and to any other silly little tart who thinks going off to a war zone is a good way to get a macho Jihadi boyfriend.

I’m more than happy for the message to go out to Syrians that we will not rescue people who’ve committed crimes against them and bring them home like a naughty child who’s just been caught scrumping apples.

And I’m more than happy for any teenage girl who might think about running off to join ISIS wherever they might rear their head next to get the message that if they go to follow them, if they decide it was a mistake and it all goes tits up, they can’t expect an action movie style airlift out courtesy of the British state.

‘They should matter a bloody sight more than anyone in the West seems to think. ‘

And there you go again, with your sweeping generalisations. For someone who only the other day was suggesting consular staff whisk Begum off in a car to the U.K., you seem very comfortable to throw around massive judgements about what you think everyone else believes. Or rather, what you want them to believe, so that you can pat yourself on the back in the belief you hold some sort of moral high ground

How on earth do you deduce that Syrian people’s views on Begum are irrelevant? They’re the most bloody relevant views in existence.

Arguably she virtually murdered 3 children. Foreign office advice was it as not safe out there but she chose to go there and have three children. Is it any different fro if I chose to have 3 babies in a rat infested damp room all of whom died - wouldn't social services come in? Would I not face proceedings?

If I got in trouble in Brazil the British authorites would not give me money and help me home. It doesn't work like that. You are on your own. If you are a terrorist then even more so.

silly little tart oh ffs!

murdered 3 children , her choice

Huge, huge, massive assumptions about whats happened in the life of a young teen, and the causes. From the talk on here its like she single-handedly forged this campaign, instead of being just more collateral along with her poor babies,along with all the others,including the young lads raised to murder others and keep the focus off themselves in order to survive.... Gosh, all these lovely choices,how do they decide between
...mmm....oooo...ummm. Oh..what to 'choose'.

Is it any different fro if I chose to have 3 babies in a rat infested damp room all of whom died
Could i just ask Xenia if you can see any circumstances in which you, or any, would 'choose' this circumstance?

Nope, don’t come out with that claptrap again- no one on here has said Begum is the only perpetrator of vile acts. But this thread is about her, and that’s a direct result of her actions in putting herself in the spotlight. Discussing one person and her vile beliefs and actions does not = ‘no one else has done anything wrong at all.’ That’s pretty basic logic.