Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

[UnexpectedButExpected]

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

Oh pull the other one bertrand. She’d be brought back here and given the ‘psychological help’ and ‘understanding’ you would be first in line to protest if she wasn’t given a 24 hour armed guard and a four bedroomed luxury house with hot and cold running jihadis connected via the internet. She’d be out on street corners radicalising other children sending them off to be suicide bombers. If she wasn’t you’d be first in the queue to complain about the injustice and she’d become a focal point for extremists and their useless idiot left wing supporters to whip up anger if she had even the slightest amount of restraint placed on her activity which would mean she’d have freedom to do a huge amount of harm and radicalise others before we could do anything. That’s been the same old story with Anjem Choudhary and Abu Bakri and Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada and Khuram Butt and it Moazam Begg and would be a thousand times worse with a young female face on it. She’d be a rallying point for extremists.

Besides, what are we supposed to convict her of when she and her mates have quite helpfully decapitated all the witnesses to their gap year terrorism escapades.

No, it’s much better and quite legal for us to send her back to Bangladesh where she can live amongst a Muslim community so she feels less inclined to kill her neighbours and fellow citizens.

Aside from anything else, millions of women have been displaced and been forced into refugee camps and faced long perilous journeys. Thousands, if not millions, of those women will have seen their children die or even be murdered. How do you think they would feel, knowing that Shamima, one of those responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children, just has to say ‘groomed’, ‘British citizen’ and she and her child are airlifted to receive proper ante-natal care? I think they’d rip her limb from limb like wild horses and she should count herself lucky she is protected from them by the Kurds and can be moved to safety with her father in Bangladesh rather than demanding some sort of rescue attempt risks the lives of British diplomats to get her here.

If they are absolutely the same thing names have different there would be one word to cover it.

If they were exactly the same thing then they would only need one name to cover it.

Natalie Bracht has a diagnosed personality disorder, and had already lost her children. She was also an adult at the time she made the decision to join ISIS.

Jack Letts has repeatedly stated his intention to return to the UK once he is released from custody of the Kurds.

There was no immediate need to revoke Begum's citizenship since it is abundantly clear she cannot make her own way to the UK and nobody expected UK forces to get her back.

It was a cynical political point scoring exercise for a Tory government drowning in the shitshow of Brexit so they made her the bogeyman to give them a bit of relief.

So if she has no way of getting back, cannot leave the camp, and isn't able to even plan a return, why the mass panic?

Because it's the easy option, that's why.

If they were exactly the same thing then they would only need one name to cover it

Is that right?

Ask yourself why the grooming gangs weren't just called paedophile rings then. Because they're the same damn thing, men grooming and abusing children. But for some reason they invented a new word just for the Asian origin men doing it.

Ask yourself why the grooming gangs weren't just called paedophile rings then. Because they're the same damn thing, men grooming and abusing children

Not according to Quilliam, who found that the MO was different. I can't find a link from the actual foundation, but there's a reasonable article about the difference here:

news.sky.com/story/grooming-gang-convictions-84-asian-say-researchers-11164589

Ask yourself why the grooming gangs weren't just called paedophile rings then. Because they're the same damn thing, men grooming and abusing children. But for some reason they invented a new word just for the Asian origin men doing it.

Again while there may be an overlap they are not exactly the same thing. Look up the definition.

The propaganda machine can rest easy knowing that it's done it's job. People believe what they want to believe.

At the end of the day it's all just an excuse for writing off human lives, while pretending to be horrified that terrorists don't value human life.

Nobody is saying she shouldn't face justice, of course she should. But if people cannot see that this knee jerk reaction to appease the baying mob and their anger is a better recruiting tool for IS than anything they could come up with themselves, they're idiots.

She will be the poster girl for IS, with 3 dead babies and a British government who didn't follow due process but instead played to the cheap seats.

Whereas if she'd been tried and convicted, she would possibly have been of benefit to the security services.

10IAR
I don't understand what you are arguing for?

Reinstating her citizenship - I don't have an issue with it really. She'll still be out in the camp so what will it actually change?

I am arguing that the bottom line is most people see a brown woman in a burka and are conditioned to treat her differently than if she was white and not wearing Islamic clothing.

I'm coming to realise that they don't even realise it themselves.

And if she can't get back, why the fuck did the enormous public outcry happen in the first place?

Because it deflected neatly from the rest of the news.

What would she be charged with? Any witness to her behaviour will probably be dead. How can anything be proved? Not to mention the cost of a trial. She needs to stay there, or her father needs to get her to Bangladesh. When she left the UK she knew exactly what she was going to.

I don’t agree that people are conditioned by her colour, if she had been a white woman I for one would feel just the same.
Did any of you see the women on the news last night with their children, still praising Isis ? disgusting women what ever their colour

I am arguing that the bottom line is most people see a brown woman in a burka and are conditioned to treat her differently than if she was white and not wearing Islamic clothing.

The bottom line is you are unable to counter people's arguments with facts so you are resorting to insulting them which is a bit pathetic.

Dungeondragon15 actually I've posted many arguments backed up.

The insults came flying my way but I didn't see you say anything then?

You all carry on piling every bit of responsibility for IS on to the shoulders of one woman, and pretending you're not.

Because if you really want to look at why IS came about, and what they wanted, it's worth looking an awful lot closer to home.

Why are there refugee camps? Why is the middle East in crisis?

Because the west went in, took what they wanted and then left.

But that's not popular either.

Bertrand: Stop accusing other people of racism and sexism when they hold exactly the same views about terrorists whether they are white/black, male/ female.
Speak for yourself - not for anyone else.

I am arguing that the bottom line is most people see a brown woman in a burka and are conditioned to treat her differently than if she was white and not wearing Islamic clothing

Exactly. But if the immigrant families allowed their children to assimilate into British society rather than constantly treating them as different and "special", they would not become radicalised, they'd be like any other British born teenager. Immigrant families who want the British quality of life, but look down on Western ideals, are to blame.

Racism works both ways. Many immigrant families do not want their offspring marrying British partners, but expect to be treated as British when it suits them. Hypocrisy.

“Bertrand: Stop accusing other people of racism and sexism when they hold exactly the same views about terrorists whether they are white/black, male/ female.
Speak for yourself - not for anyone else.”
I think this was meant for someone else on this occasion!

“But if the immigrant families allowed their children to assimilate into British society rather than constantly treating them as different and "special", they would not become radicalised, they'd be like any other British born teenager. ”

Hmm. This is an interesting one. I think that we have to eliminate racism before Muslim teenagers feel like any other British born teenager.....

I think that we have to eliminate racism Good luck with that!
any other British born teenager I don't know what this means.

And I honestly think that anyone who says they are not influenced at all by another person’s colour or nationality is deluding themselves. We all are.

“I think that we have to eliminate racism Good luck with that!
any other British born teenager I don't know what this means.”

Eh?

I am arguing that the bottom line is most people see a brown woman in a burka and are conditioned to treat her differently than if she was white and not wearing Islamic clothing. I'm coming to realise that they don't even realise it themselves

Well, you said it yourself: people "believe what they want to believe" (even if it's the most arrant nonsense)

BTW you also mentioned "a British government who didn't follow due process but instead played to the cheap seats". I agree there was probably some grandstanding on this, but don't know enough of the "due process" to state as a fact that it wasn't followed

It seems you do, though, so please can you share with us exactly in what way our government failed to follow that process?

Yeah people are being too judgemental to the ISIS member who supports beheading people. It's because of her clothes obviously. I've read these sorts of comments before but usually on parody accounts.

Bertrand It's laudable to try and eliminate racism but 'elimination' seems a pretty tall order. You will never be able to police every single person's thought processes.
any other British teenager Do you mean a farmer's son from Selkirk, the daughter of a baronet, a girl brought up in care... teenagers are not one big homogeneous lump.

Derxa- I was responding to a poster who said that if only Muslim parents would integrate their children into British society properly they would be just like any other British teenager. I think it is much more complicated than that.

Dungeondragon15 actually I've posted many arguments backed up.

You haven't posted any logical or convincing argument for your views. Your main argument seems to be that anyone who doesn't agree with you is fooled by the propaganda or that they are racist. In other words you seem to think that you superior to those who don't share your view both intellectually because you are clever enough not to be convinced by the propaganda and also morally.

The insults came flying my way but I didn't see you say anything then?

I haven't noticed anyone insulting you. The vast majority of people have been polite in their responses and years yet you have insulted just about everybody doesn't agree with you.

You all carry on piling every bit of responsibility for IS on to the shoulders of one woman, and pretending you're not.

This is an example of the kind of nonsensical argument you keep making. Nobody says or thinks that this one woman is responsible for everyone that Isis.