Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

[UnexpectedButExpected]

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

Were the Iqbal sisters young teenagers? No? Then it’s a completely different situation.

Incidentally. I do think it’s important we get the legality of this removal,of citizenship absolutely right. It has significant implications for many people, not just ISIS brides.

Excellent news about the Iqbal pair

I believe it's said that over 100 have already had citizenship removed (?), but as I said at the start, if Shamima's case lends some urgency to more being reviewed then all the fuss may have been worthwhile

No, it isn’t a completely different situation, @ Bertrand. It’s about not allowing radicalised terrorists who condone the worst violence against innocent people British citizenship. The age at which they left the UK is entirely irrelevant in this context.

The age at which they left the UK is entirely irrelevant in this context

Really?

A 10 year old? A 2 year old?

15 is very different to 18 or 35.

There is a reason we have safeguarding responsibilities when dealing with minors. It really, really does matter.

The age at which they left is relevant in that if she was below the age of criminal responsibility people may feel differently. However, she was 15, which is old enough to understand what she was doing. There are people in prison who are younger than her.

It’s about not allowing radicalised terrorists who condone the worst violence against innocent people British citizenship

But nobody's shouting about the men, who are exactly what you describe, who are already back!

Possibly because they seem to have slipped in under the radar. I don’t imagine anyone’s happy about them either. And I haven’t noticed much shouting either, this has appeared to me a pretty reasoned debate.

The men who have returned have been investigated and prosecuted where relevant. I suspect people aren’t ‘shouting about it’ as much, as you put it, because the men haven’t courted publicity and wanted the U.K. govt to risk people’s lives to bring them back, as Begum has

The men who have returned have been investigated and prosecuted where relevant

No, they haven't. The government admitted that only 10% were investigated or prosecuted. Which is why I cannot understand why people aren't more concerned about the clear threat already in the UK.

But then it's easier to froth about a woman in a burka eh? Almost de rigeur at the moment.

I think the men already back should have their citizenship revoked if possible and then deported. If not possible, then they should be prosecuted under every possible law.

That doesn't mean that the women should get a free pass just because they are women.

I wouldn't advocate sending any of our personnel to rescue the men either, they just happen to have found their own way back.

“The government admitted that only 10% were investigated or prosecuted”

• what’s your source that only 10% were investigated?

Nobody’s “frothing”. If you make yourself the poster girl for IS, it’s bound to attract attention, isn’t it?

Frothing is usually a term people use here when other people don’t agree with them!

So why not be angry about the men?

My source? Savid Javid.

Has Jack Letts' citizenship been revoked as well?

Jack Letts is surely an open and shut case as he has Canadian citizenship.

Yeah, I was hoping you might actually be able to reference a source

That doesn't mean that the women should get a free pass just because they are women.

She shouldn't. Never once said she should. But she's the one people are talking about, condemning and being angry about. Why should she be the sole target of their ire? Why not everyone who left to join IS?

Because she’s invited it. Do you not understand that?

The way I see it is groomed children can’t see the end result at the start. Aren’t started off with videos of rape or abuse. It’s insidious, like a frog in slowly boiling water.

SB got the boiling water at the start. She didn’t get slowly persuaded into a scale of a abuse from its normal to smack someone to its normal to behead people. She found the beheading acceptable from the start.

Additionally, loss of citizenship isn’t a cause of death. It will have made no difference to that poor baby.

There is nothing the UK should have done in this case, citizen or no. She is not worth risking consular or military staff on. It’s also not a precedent we want to set. Does the UK even have an extradition treaty with Syria?

I think the removal of citizenship is a bit irrelevant.

Even if she remained a British citizen she would still be in the camp and, sadly, her baby would still have died.

Even if she were a British citizen what would change? No personnel should risk their lives to extract her. Could they even do that? Isn't she in a detention camp?

Because this thread is about Begum. Nothing stopping anyone starting their own thread about other people if they want to.

Jack Letts is surely an open and shut case as he has Canadian citizenship.

It looks like that but he's still British despite all the media coverage around him in the last 3-4 years

I'll leave you all here to carry on.

Clearly the propaganda machine is doing it's job.

Also, I notice autocorrect did a job on Sajid Javid so I'd like to correct it.

The information is there, I found it. You could too if you could be bothered. There are 400 Isis fighters in the UK, right now, not being watched by the security forces.

If that doesn't worry you but she does, ask yourselves why?

It’s also (presumably) a choice of the journalists who want to be over there to get a story, who aren’t required to take someone out of the country - someone without papers who is possibly in captivity.

Just because journos pass in and out doesn’t mean a rescue mission for an isis bride is safe or sensible